[Ellen Shapiro]

Sam Kinsey, Fat Guy and I visited the New York Burger Co. yesterday. The New York Burger Co. is a new high-concept burger joint located at 303 Park Avenue South just north of the intersection with 23rd Street. New York Burger Co. has several aspects that we felt would be interesting to eGulleters, including the use of all Coleman Natural Beef, house-made condiments, high-quality toppings and a bright modern design.

We were lucky enough to be able to catch Mel Coleman, of Coleman Natural Beef, while he was in New York, so after taking photos in the kitchen area and talking at length to New York Burger Co.'s owners Madeline Poley and Spiros Zisimatos, we were able to sit with Mel Coleman for more than an hour in order to talk about his beef and then some.

With some help from Fat Guy and his notes I'll lay out the basics and the photos here, and Sam Kinsey will follow with more details later.

The basic burger patties are made from a mix devised by Coleman Natural Beef, which is mostly chuck plus different types of trim that bring the mix to an 80-20 meat-to-fat ratio. The meat is ground by Coleman at its facility in Colorado and immediately Cry-O-Vac packaged to prevent oxidation. The patties themselves are formed on premises. This is the same antibiotic-free, hormone-free beef that is sold at Whole Foods. The relationship with New York Burger Co. is a deep one, but Coleman is not an owner.



The brioche-like buns are toasted using a cool toaster that is a little bit like a cafeteria toaster but has a more complicated layout.



There are many burger options, each of which uses high-quality condiments and toppings. The burgers are assembled, wrapped, and labeled to show which kind they are. Plum tomatoes and Romaine lettuce are standard and red onion is available on request. There are preset combinations and custom options as well.













There are other items available as well, including grilled chicken. Also turkey burgers, veggie burgers, and salads.





The condiments are a marvel. There are so many, and each is house made.



Fruit smoothies and house-cut fries done in 100% soybean oil round out the menu offerings.





After awhile Mel Coleman really let his hair down, so to speak, and consented to this pose for the ages.



All three of us felt that the overall level of New York Burger Co.'s products were very high. I particularly loved the portabella mushrooms liberally applied to my burger. The beef had a clean an “non-scary” taste. The one main area of improvement we all gravitated towards in our later discussions was that the consistency of the burger patties could be improved via a coarser grind or an on-premises grind or both. It is a brand-new restaurant so there is plenty of time yet for them to experiment.

New York Burger Co. is open Monday through Friday from 11am until 10pm, Saturday from noon until 8pm, and Sunday from noon until 7pm. The weekday lunch and dinner rushes are very busy (Madeline Poley told us they are doing 600+ burgers on busy weekdays, and that's just burgers not including salads and all those other menu items) so you may wish to time your visits for the in-between hours and weekends.

[Suzanne F]

Cool! I noticed the place from the bus yesterday. It's like you read my mind.

Do you remember what distinguishes each city's burger, since apparently the condiments are available for all?

[Ellen Shapiro]

New York Burger = just the lettuce and tomato, $5
New York Cheeseburger = with choice of American, bleu, Vt. cheddar, Swiss, or Jack, $5.50
Skyscraper Burgers = double patties, $7 or $7.50 with cheese
(All patties are 6 ounces)
Chicago Burger = applewood bacon, cheddar, 1000-island, $6.75
Dallas Burger = fire-grilled onions, Jack, BBQ sauce, $5.75
Seattle burger = portabellas, grilled onions, "burger sauce," $6.50

[slkinsey]

Their burgers are:

• New York Burger: 6 oz. natural beef burger
  
• New York Cheeseburger: 6 oz. natural beef burger with American, bleu, Vermont cheddar, Swiss or Monterey jack
  
• Skyscraper Burger: double natural beef burger (12 oz.)
  
• Cheese Skyscraper: double natural beef burger with cheese
  
• Chicago Burger: 6 oz. natural beef burger with appleqwood smoked bacon, cheddar and 1000 Island
  
• Dallas Burger: 6 oz. natural beef burger with with fire-griled onions, Monterey jack and BBQ sauced
  
• Seattle Burger: 6 oz. natural beef burger with portobello mushrooms, fire-grilled onions and NY Burger Co.'s burger sauce

Edited to add: one of is clearly a faster typist

This post has been edited by slkinsey: 01 July 2004 - 09:09 AM

[Suzanne F]

Ellen Shapiro, on Jul 1 2004, 11:52 AM, said:

. . .
New York Cheeseburger = with choice of American, bleu, Vt. cheddar, Swiss, or Jack, $5.50
. . .

(and a better typist, too, but so what? ) Thank you BOTH for the descriptions!

This post has been edited by Suzanne F: 01 July 2004 - 09:11 AM

[slkinsey]

I realize that I have been remiss in not posting more substantially to this thread before now.

New York Burger Co. is an interesting place. I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting. One thing I really appreciated is that they don't hit you over the head with the "natural, wholesome food" thing that figured somewhat more prominently in their PR materials. As I have said elsewhere in these forums, for me, any restaurant's food needs to stand on its own. One shouldn't have to buy into the philosophy -- be it related to health, politics, whatever -- in order to appreciate the food. Rather, one should be able to appreciate the food simply as food. The philosophy is extra. This is something I mentioned to co-owner Madeline Poley, and she allowed as to how she felt the same. Fundamentally, New York Burger Co. is about being a middlebrow fast food burger place, producing a quality product at a reasonable price. I think they are successful in this goal, as this is exactly what NYBC feels like. It's only later, after you notice that the tomatoes and lettuce look especially fresh and there are a zillion different kinds of sauces, that it begins to sink in that they're doing something different.

What's nice from my perspective, though, is that they are still just trying to be a fast food place. After all, as Poley says, " if you're going to eat a burger, you might as well eat a good one." And why shouldn't you eat a burger? It's also good to see that unlike some other "next generation fast food" places (Better Burger comes to mind) they aren't trying to sell low fat burgers with soy "cheese" and "air crisped" French fries. Rather, they are doing everything the good old-fashioned way with 80/20 ground beef, real cheese and deep fried French fries. The difference is that the beef is Coleman natural beef (more on this later), the cheese is real cheese and the fries are cut fresh and deep fried in soybean oil. This is all good, in my opinion. Rather then reinventing the wheel or trying to make people accept odd alternatives or transmogrifications of the fast foods they love, serve them the food they want – just do it with ingredients that support what you are trying to do.

While we were there, I tried all three of their specialty burgers: the Chicago (bacon, cheddar, 1000 island), the Dallas (grilled onions, Monterrey Jack, BBQ sauce) and the Seatle (grilled portobello mushrooms, grilled onion, NYBC's "burger sauce" ). All were very good, and given the fact that philosophy-driven restaurants are often more expensive, it was nice to see that their offerings are priced competitively for the neighborhood. That said, NYBC is not offering a burger-connoisseur's ultimate hamburger. Despite the fact that they are using better quality beef, it's not the case that an NYBC burger stands above the competition like a Peter Luger porterhouse stands above the competition. I found that NYBC's burgers tasted right around as god as the (surprisingly excellent) burgers I get at Scotty's Diner around the corner from my day job. Considering that they are right around the same price, this is perhaps to be expected. I will say, however, that if NYBC were in the neighborhood, I'd be more likely to give them my business due to their ingredient sourcing.

All this is to say that New York Burger Co. isn't quite a "destination" burger place. . . yet. They're still getting their legs underneath them, and I think there are some relatively minor adjustments they could make that would propel them into that status (if, indeed, this is something to which they aspire). As Ellen mentions above, their meat is ground fine by Coleman and shipped to NYBC in cryovac-ed "pillows." At the store, uniform patties are formed (it looks like they must use some kind of mold) and the raw patties are stored for some period of time before being cooked. I think we all agreed that they would have benefited from a coarser grind which, in my experience, provides a "beefier" flavor and is more interesting to the tooth. I was also a little disappointed to learn that the meat was not ground on-premises. Some time ago, Fat Guy and I did a series of burger experiments using different cuts of beef, etc. Of all the differences we noticed, the one variable that had the largest impact on flavor and overall quality was time after grinding. There was simply no comparison between fresh ground and not fresh ground, and we eventually found ourselves recoiling from the flavor of the not fresh ground beef. This is undoubtedly a function of the oxidation that occurs when grinding exposes a vastly greater surface area to the air. Coleman mitigates this effect somewhat by packing their ground beef in vacuum, but I'd still love to taste a Coleman beef burger with the beef ground in-house fresh that day. A more "hand packed" texture would be appreciated too.

That said, it's an awful lot to ask for when you can get a burger, fries and a soda for less than 8 bucks! As I said before, I think they are highly successful at what they are trying to be: a middlebrow neighborhood fast food burger place that just so happens to be using quality, natural ingredients. I think they will he a big success, and there should be more places like it.


Another major point of interest was that we got to hang out with Mel Coleman, Jr., the Chairman of Coleman Natural Meats. Coleman supplies NYBC with their beef, and Coleman Natural Meats is the pioneer in the natural meat movement/industry. There is a lot more to be said about Mel and about Coleman Natural Meats, probably in another thread. Mel himself is exactly what one would expect in a beef man from Colorado, and yet also exactly what one would not expect. The expected part came packaged in ostrich-skin cowboy boots and a hat, and clearly had a thorough knowledge of animal husbandry and hands-on experience at every level of the industry. I guess I was also expecting some pithy stories about artificial insemination and branding yearlings to go along with the outfit. I'm sure there's plenty of that to be had, but Mel also pulled out his pen and treated us to a detailed explanation of the extremely complex economics involved in selling the beef from a 1,200 pound cow. Once Fat Guy finishes working up the graphs and flow charts and we both go back to school for a few more years of mathematics, we'll make a post on that. Really, though, Mel Coleman is a great guy, Coleman appears to be a wonderful business. We will be trying to get to know both better and undoubtedly will have much, much more to post about Coleman and Mel in the future.

[hshiau]

On the recommendation from this site, I went to New York Burger Company on Friday for lunch. I had the Seattle Burger with the mushrooms and onions. It was tasty and definitely a notch above your standard burgers. Like the previous post, I thought a coarser grind would definitely have made it a different experience. The thing I liked most actually was the fruit shake. Unlike many places that have frozen fruit in tubs to make the shakes, I got to watch the guy peel the bananas for my shake.

The food was good but I wouldn't make a special trip considering I don't eat burgers that much anyway. I still need to try the burger joint in the Parker Meridien.

Howard

This post has been edited by hshiau: 08 July 2004 - 02:09 PM

[Mister_Cutlets]

I'll have to dissent from the kudos being posted here. I think the NY Burger Co. produces a flavorless, overcooked, bland, and pointless burger. It's only 85% lean, not 80%, and so overcooked that it hardly even matters. It doesn't taste like anything at all...although I'm told that they are reducing the grill heat. But I ordered a medium-rare burger and ate it with Mel Coleman, and I still couldn't summon up any enthusiasm. Go to Shake Shack, go to Joe Jr's, go to Molly's, go to Blue 9: even go to Houston's. But don't waste a centimeter of precious intestinal space on these hockey pucks.

Vitriolically,
Mr. Cutlets

[Bux]

Given that the Shake Shack is just a block away, I was going to ask for a comparison of the burgers. I realize the Shake Shack doesn't offer all those toppings, but how do the patties, lettuce, tomato and bun rate against each other and relative to price. They seem to occupy the same middle level of the market.

I like the idea that people can talk of relative healthiness even when talking of a bacon cheeseburger, but soya oil is highly over rated (by the soy oil council or whatever) and lard or tallow, is probably no worse in which to fry potatoes. Is there such a thing as all natural American cheese? I thought it was all processed stuff, but I may be wrong on that.

[Fat Guy]

They're two different species of burgers so a direct comparison is somewhat difficult, regardless of the nexus of target-audience and location.

Starting with the meat, Shake Shack uses a 4 ounce patty made from sirloin and brisket (with a very juicy fat-to-protein ratio) seasons it thoroughly and cooks it on a griddle whereas NY Burger Co is doing a 6 ounce patty made mostly from chuck (we were told 80/20 by Mel Coleman and the two owners) and broiled, I think unseasoned, on a grill. Two very different styles. That being said I like the Shake Shack patty much better. A theoretical NY Burger Co patty ground on premises, coarser, and less densely packed might give the Shack Burger patty a run for its money, but not in its current form. I hasten to add I wouldn't go nearly as far as "flavorless, overcooked, bland" in describing the NY Burger Co patty, and I think the photographs indicate we're hardly in "hockey-puck" territory. I thought it had a good beef flavor, was cooked through but not dry (the Shack Burger is also cooked through), and was unseasoned like most burgers in New York, even most of the most celebrated ones. I'm not exactly sure why everybody in the world doesn't season their burger patties as a matter of course, but NY Burger Co is hardly unique in apparently not doing so.

When it comes to everything else, NY Burger Co is much more competitive. To those of us who fixate on the patty -- and I'm certain Mr. Cutlets is in that category! -- the conversation is already long over. But for those who give equal or similar weight to patty, bun, toppings, and condiments, there is more to be said.

I think both places have excellent buns, albeit different. Shake Shack uses a buttered potato roll cooked on the griddle; NY Burger Co uses a toasted brioche roll. It's hard to find fault with either.

When it comes to condiments and toppings, NY Burger Co is clearly the leader. The Shake Shack's stuff is good as far as it goes, and clearly Shake Shack has made the decision to do a small number of things well, but NY Burger Co has incredible depth and breadth in this category. I don't think there is a strong rival anywhere in New York City in that price bracket.

NY Burger Co is also strong on ancillary items and permutations. The smoothies are terrific, the fries are quite good (I doubt the Shake Shack will be able to compete on this front any time soon), and there are all those salads and other types of burgers.

I should note that these observations are based on eating the two establishments' offerings within about half an hour of one another.

[bpearis]

Mister_Cutlets, on Jul 8 2004, 06:34 PM, said:

Go to Shake Shack, go to Joe Jr's, go to Molly's, go to Blue 9: even go to Houston's. But don't waste a centimeter of precious intestinal space on these hockey pucks.

Vitriolically,
Mr. Cutlets

We're getting off track here (or I am) from this thread, I know, but I was on my way home tonight and stopped at Blue 9 and had their signature double-patty burger. It was a big pile of whatever. I had one about nine months ago that was much better.

Tuesday, actually, I was at Burger Joint in Le Parker Meridian and that was probably the best burger I've had in four or five months. I'd forgotten why burgers could be so good.

That said, I'm anxious to try NYBC and also Shake Shack's burger.

-bill

[R Washburn]

Quote

Tuesday, actually, I was at Burger Joint in Le Parker Meridian and that was probably the best burger I've had in four or five months. I'd forgotten why burgers could be so good.

I really like "burger joint", but I have to say that New York Burger company is better in every concievable way and costs only $0.50 more. I haven't tried Shake Shack yet, but I don't know of any other $5.00 burger that comes close in quality to the one I had at New York Burger Co. this afternoon.

Thanks for the heads up on this place.

This post has been edited by R Washburn: 10 July 2004 - 02:29 PM

[bpearis]

R Washburn, on Jul 10 2004, 05:28 PM, said:

Quote

Tuesday, actually, I was at Burger Joint in Le Parker Meridian and that was probably the best burger I've had in four or five months. I'd forgotten why burgers could be so good.

I really like "burger joint", but I have to say that New York Burger company is better in every concievable way and costs only $0.50 more. I haven't tried Shake Shack yet, but I don't know of any other $5.00 burger that comes close in quality to the one I had at New York Burger Co. this afternoon.

Thanks for the heads up on this place.

I tried both NYBC and Shake Shack today. I got the Chicago Stye at NYBC... it was good but the patty was overcooked. Nice bacon, though. And I liked the brioche roll. Burger Joint's, having been this week, crushes it in my opinion. More burger flavor at BJ.

Shake Shack, I got the Shackburger and thought it was great, way better than NYBC and maybe as good as BJ but not sure. If I hadn't just had one from the other place, I would've gotten a second.

[alanamoana]

Ate at NY Burger Co this afternoon. Definitely better than "fast food" like McDonald's but I would have to agree with bpearis that the BJ burger is much better. My s.o. and I ordered two burgers, both cooked medium, and ended up with one rare and one well done. S.o. commented that even with his burger undercooked, there wasn't any real "juiciness" to it. I would agree that the burger was rather bland and flavorless. I still champion the BJ burger as an all around good burger on the level of In-n-Out. If considering price, the NY Burger Co. is a deal for portion size.

(probably for the other thread, but to consolidate)...
Went to the Shake Shack after NY Burger Co to try a custard or concrete. Was disappointed that they only had hot fudge, caramel and mint cookie as toppings/mix-ins. I have no real experience in the "custard" arena so didn't know what to expect. It seemed to be rather like a shake in consistency and overall too sweet for my taste. The burgers that I saw being made were rather puny and although cheap, didn't come with any toppings at all...I guess you have to build your own burger at a premium.

I remember FG writing that the employees are from Washington Irving High School, but it seemed to me that most of the kids working there today were standard middle class Manhattanites. It looked like a stand at a beach where the kids work for the summer. Disorganized and messy in my opinion without much management going on. I realize it is just a stand in a park, but I guess I have high expectations when it comes to Danny Meyer and the USHG.

[okinawaChris]

What are the types of condiments available? Does anyone have a list? Which was the best or a surprise?

[dhyatt]

Hello eGullet,

I just became a new member yesterday after seeing the burger reviews.

I was writing my own summary of New York Burger Company for my own little burger site -- http://www.spankaroo...gers/index.html -- and a search for its name brought me to this forum. (I linked this forum back to that site.)

So enjoy http://www.spankaroo...gers/index.html and let me know of other New York spots I should add to the "due for reviews" list! I don't eat burgers as often as I used to, but I still like takin' their pictures.

(For my money, Blue 9 is better than New York Burger Company which is in turn better than Better Burger.)

- dhyatt

[Daniel]

Thats a great site.. I loved the pictures. I dont know why you ranked better burger so high.. I hate that place and everything it stands for with every fiber of my being.

[dhyatt]

The rankings (in my site I linked to above) relative to each other are a bit wobbly, I'll admit, given that the photos + rankings have spread out over the course of two years.

The rankings that really stick out as anomalies, in retrospect, are Grand Saloon and Malachy's (both a little too high) and Paul's Place (maybe a little low). However I still stand by my top three: Corner Bistro, White Horse, and McHale's, with Rare a close 4th.

I have to admit I really did like the buns at Better Burger, despite their whole-wheat-ness. Usually I get the chicken burger, which is quite good, but obviously it's disqualified for scoring on a hamburger site (on the grounds of wussyness).

I also have a set of (very high) rankings ready to post for Burger Joint (@ the Parker Meridien) but my wife broke her arm last night practicing for Roller Derby (!!! yes, roller derby -- check http://www.gothamrollerderby.com) -- so I didn't have time to post 'em up yet. Maybe she'll pass out from pain tonight and I will get a chance to update.

Unfortunately, I didn't get any photos at Burger Joint. I guess that means we'll have to go back

[dhyatt]

whoops, i made a typo above in the hyperlink to

http://www.gothamrollerderby.com

... for all you roller derby fans. Now back to your regularly scheduled burger programming.

[MHesse]

A group of us visited NYBC tonight. While almost all thought the meat was of good quality and probably fresh (though they had a stack of patties sitting outside next to the grill), the grind was too fine and the cooked patty was very dry. My order was properly medium rare, but even the rare portion was dry. The brioche roll is too much bread for the burger. While toasted on the inside with a shiny, almost "Krispy" appearance on the outside, in-between is soft white bread. I doesn't matter what the toppings are if the burger itself isn't up to snuff. The fruit smoothies were quite good however.

On the way home, I managed to get the last Shackburger of the night at the Shake Shack. It was so so so so much better tasting and juicy.

Do try Shake Shack. Don't bother with the New York Burger Company, unless your alternative is McD. Maybe not then either.

[Fat Guy]

I'm surprised that, a couple of months into this venture, the NYBC people still apparently haven't changed their approach to making those patties. I was pretty sure, back at the beginning of July, that it was just going to be a matter of tweaking before we saw a far superior burger. The restaurant's concept is a good one. The beef they're using is first-rate and flavorful, and the fat content seems right, so all the tools are there. This seeming lack of progress, then, is something of a disappointment. I suppose the lunch rush has been so intense of late that there hasn't been much impetus or time to do anything except work within the already established system. Luckily, there's still plenty of time to fix the implementation.

[Suzanne F]

I was with MHesse last night. My thoughts, in addition to the belief that if I still worked nearby NYBC would be one of my regular lunch spots:

1. NYBC needs to train the cashiers much better! I approached clearly as a novice, and was given almost no help. She didn't even tell me I could specify temperature! As a result, mine came out medium-well, which turned to well-done on sitting. In her defense, though, she allowed as how the "Big Deal" could, in fact, include a salad and fountain soda; she did not make me take bottled water with my burger and salad. (Good; I refuse to buy water, ever, anywhere.)

2. The bun is very good, if too big for the burger. The shine is from egg wash (and it is an egg bread, not white). That armor-plating helps it hold together under the onslaught of juicy accoutrements.

3. The accoutrements were excellent: I had the Seattle, with portobellos and grilled onions. I loved the onions -- really good grilled flavor. Tons of mushroom slices. And the tomato slices and chiffonade of romain that come standard were also good.

4. Unfortunately, while the accoutrements were juicy, my overcooked burger was not (obviously). However, it had excellent char, imparting a strong grilled flavor. I suspect that the meat flavor would have been good, too, had it not be incinerated. If only it had be seasoned. (Why are so many burger places afraid of salt and pepper? That was a problem with the Shake Shack burger as well -- I tasted Mark's.)

5. My Seattle supposedly had NYBC's "burger sauce." Fortunately, I didn't know that -- because when I tasted it by itself, I hated it: burnt tomato flavor under Worcestershire and raisins, kind of like a bad, thinned-out A-1. The Creamy Horseradish was good, though, and made a fine addition to my burger's panoply of flavors.

6. The salad that came as part of the Big Deal was very satisfying: a good mix of greens, a couple of nice cherry tomatoes, chunks of cucumber, grated carrot, and a minimum of green pepper. All neither too dried-out nor too wet. The "fat-free Cucumber Dill Yogurt" dressing tasted all right, but had that faux-mayo mucilaginous feel to it.

7. I didn't taste the fries until they were cold. They had potential -- good color and flavorful grease; even cold, they were still edible. While waiting for our orders we were discussing whether they had been blanched; couldn't tell for sure by looks.

8. On to Shake Shack: what a great aroma emanated from there! Truly Pavlovian. (At least until they closed up and were burning the grease off the grill; that was disgusting.) I only tasted a bit of the meat from MHesse's burger -- very good, but lacking in salt as usual. That was a perfect one-handed burger: even with the lettuce and tomato, it only requires one had to manage it. And at the price, a better value than NYBC. I'd probably do SS in the summer, NYBC in winter -- burgers must be consumed in situ, and SS only has that outdoor seating, a seasonal drawback.

[picaman]

Suzanne F, on Aug 24 2004, 12:39 PM, said:

Unfortunately, while the accoutrements were juicy, my overcooked burger was not (obviously). However, it had excellent char, imparting a strong grilled flavor.

I was with SuzanneF and MHesse as well

I generally agree with their comments, except that I'd more vehemently stress my hatred of the patty. The flavor was all char--no subtlety whatsoever. For me, it had the exact flavor of a premade cheap "ground beef patty" purchased in bulk at Costco and cooked to death on the backyard Weber, minus the lighter fluid aftertaste. Which is a shame, because I know they are supposedly starting with a high-quality patty, but they are really ruining it. And from what I saw and heard from others, it didn't make much difference whether you ordered it cooked to taste--the medium rare patty was nearly as dry as the well-done patty.

My supposition here is that the patty is too lean to start with. I remember seeing the Parker Meridien patties before cooking, and they looked much fattier than these. And the Parker Meridien burger, with approximately the same size and cooking method, was immeasurably juicier.



Jamie

[dr_memory]

At the risk of adding what's basically a "me too" to this thread, I caught a quick dinner at NYBC last night, and was a little peeved by the near-missness of it all.

As noted above, the condiments, bun and extras are all top-notch. The egg glaze on the bun and its general texture reminded me of the roasted pork buns at the better dim sum joints in Chinatown, and the store-made ketchup and bbq sauces were good enough that if they bottled them, I'd buy them.

...so it was kind of exasperating that the burger that I ordered "medium" came out on the charred side of well done, and the fries were limp and soggy.

I'm willing to give it another shot on the burger: I'll just order it rare next time and hope that translates to "medium" in the local argot. But the fries were just inexcusable: making crisp french fries isn't exactly rocket science: all you need is two fryolaters and a working digital timer. For all the money they've obviously invested in the place, you'd think this would be a no-brainer...