[bourdain]

The former director of the Union Square Greenmarket makes some long overdue observations about the dismal state of the Union Square Greenmarket on today's editorial page.
It IS shameful that New York City should lag so far behind other cities. And chefs have been relatively silent on the growing "muffin/cider and flower" predominance in what should be among the most diverse and interesting markets in the country. After an initial burst of enthusiasm a while back, I stopped buying much of anything for the restaurant there for the restaurant a long time ago. And even as a source of inspiration, the place now lags.
Sour grapes or not, the writer makes a lot of very good points--and offers some potentially useful suggestions.
The Greenmarket has been getting a free pass from chefs and consumers for too long--so happy were we with the concept. Time to start griping. Loudly.

[Varmint]

Here's the link to Nina Planck's commentary

[tanabutler]

Thanks for linking that. TB. I am a farmer's market junkie: I try to go twice a week, and sometimes three.

From her excellent article:

1.

Quote

Some rules seemed perverse: Greenmarket prohibits farmers from describing farming methods on price signs (like "hormone free"), ostensibly to protect consumers from mendacious claims.

Does this mean the word "organic" is forbidden? What about "no spray" and other distinctions? There are varying degrees of chemical contamination--at least at our local farmer's markets (one every day of the week except Monday).

2.

Quote

Many baked goods sold at Greenmarket were produced by large commercial operations using frozen mixes and hydrogenated vegetable oils.

I don't even know what to say about that, it's so sickening. Why not list the purveyors who use these revolting ingredients? Couldn't the Times, if not Ms. Planck herself, write an even deeper exposé on these practices?

3.

Quote

To encourage business, I suggested that we publicize the chefs who bought Greenmarket foods and farmers who sold to them, and give farmers a pamphlet with marketing tips.

There is a fairly new group in Santa Cruz called CASCC (Culinary Alliance of Santa Cruz County) whose is pretty much doing that. It's a group of food professionals working together to promote Santa Cruz as a culinary destination, but it doesn't stop there. Members include chefs and organic farmers, food artisans, writers, etcetera, who are working together. One chef throws an annual Farmer's Appreciation dinner: he's also the one who buys an entire season's crop of vegetables he likes (from a very grateful farmer). My chef friend, Jim, is getting a lot of press for his Outstanding in the Field farm dinners: it's quite a phenomenon.

I'm sure that Greenmarket must be huge (she doesn't mention how much space or how many vendors there are) compared to Santa Cruz county's farmers markets. I suppose the tendency for corruption, for that is what she describes, is greater in the big city than it is here.

The article doesn't read like sour grapes to me: she sounds like she's ringing a bell. New Yorkers can decide if it's an alarm or not. I hope they wake up and shake up.

Seriously, what can locals do to effect change?

[docsconz]

Here is a thread in which Ms. Planck gives eGullet a first-hand account of her Greenmarket experience.

[JosephB]

Nina talks about how the City does not subject licensed use of greenmarket space to the competitive bidding ordinarily required by the City's procurement rules. Nina strongly suggests that the City justifies sole-source procurement of the greenmarket operator because there is no other option. She also suggests that there are in fact numerous farmer organizations qualified to bid on the license to operate the City's greenmarkets.

I don't know whether a legitimate challenge could be made to the sole-source procurement of the greenmarket operator. Procurement is certainly a sensitive issue in the City. The recent Snapple deal and the Comptroller's challenge to it highlight some of the issues.

Are there really plenty of farmer’s markets organizations capable of running the City's greenmarkets more effectively than the group now in place? Who are they?

[tanabutler]

docsconz, on Apr 24 2004, 06:35 AM, said:

Here is a thread in which Ms. Planck gives eGullet a first-hand account of her Greenmarket experience.

Thanks so much for bringing that to my attention, Dosconz. I posted a link to it over at the CASCC forums, which are brand new. I should print it up and take it down to the farmer's market this morning. Her post is most excellent and informative.

[Fat Guy]

The Union Square Greenmarket becomes more Soviet with each passing year. I've long been disgusted by the extent of the cynicism and hypocrisy, not that the organization's treatment of Nina Planck -- who was their last best hope of avoiding the dustbin of history -- was a surprise.

Before the Greenmarket can undergo its long-overdue renaissance, the current stranglehold is going to need to be broken. I intend to purchase nothing more at the Greenmarket until Nina Planck's suggestions are implemented or someone else is put in charge of the operation. Instead, I'll again be participating in Carnegie Hill/Yorkville CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) and shopping at Fairway.

[tanabutler]

Right on, Fat Guy.

You should let them know about LocalHarvest.org, so they can get their CSA listed in the national database.

If anyone else in the NYC area knows about other CSAs, get them listed at LocalHarvest, too. The more the merrier.

[bourdain]

Years ago, I was part of a couple of harmless soft news or publicity type segments that filmed me "marketing" at the Union Sq Greenmarket. Once--when we went in without permission--we were immediately swarmed by security types. The other time, we had to go through a rigorous application approval process. They seemed very concered about content-and supposedly "some of the farmers don't want to be on camera". Looking back, I wonder what they were really afraid of.
Some hard reporting needed here.

[docsconz]

Fat Guy, on Apr 24 2004, 12:25 PM, said:

The Union Square Greenmarket becomes more Soviet with each passing year. I've long been disgusted by the extent of the cynicism and hypocrisy, not that the organization's treatment of Nina Planck -- who was their last best hope of avoiding the dustbin of history -- was a surprise.

Before the Greenmarket can undergo its long-overdue renaissance, the current stranglehold is going to need to be broken. I intend to purchase nothing more at the Greenmarket until Nina Planck's suggestions are implemented or someone else is put in charge of the operation. Instead, I'll again be participating in Carnegie Hill/Yorkville CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) and shopping at Fairway.

The one problem with this plan is that some very good producers may be hurt if this becomes more widely adopted. As imperfect as the Greenmarket is (very), there are still some excellent producers selling their product there, many of whom are very upset with the current direction of the greenmarket. My suggestion would be to use the Market very selectively.

[Fat Guy]

Same experience here, Vic, when we did a travel show for some New Zealand TV station. As an aside, there were two hosts on the show: a totally hot babe in tight leather pants and this complete schlepper of a guy who looked like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo. Of course the segment I did was with the scraggly dude. As an added bonus I couldn't understand a fucking word he said because he mumbled in an already-thick Kiwi accent. Anyway, they had gone through the Upper-Volta-border-crossing permit exercise, and still every two seconds some Greenmarket thugs would come around to make sure we weren't stealing their state secrets.

Let's stay on this, Vic, and maybe we'll finally get our legs broken for something. And somebody e-mail Nina Planck so she can come here and give us the real scoop. We don't need any of this polite New York Times Op-Ed shit. Let's hear about the non-taxpaying off-the-grid shady types, the corruption, the graft (is there a difference between corruption and graft?), the mislabeling . . .

And chefs, give up the Greenmarket party line already. We all know you hardly get any of your produce from the Greenmarket, so stop doing free advertising for these people. Instead, feature the best individual vendors without regard to their Greenmarket context (since they all deliver anyway). Guys like Tim Starck deserve the good PR, but they don't deserve to be stuck at that piece-of-shit Greenmarket.

[Nina Planck]

Thanks for the good points. What can I add? You all know more about NYC food than I do.;

The most important point is that Greenmarket is not ONLY Union Square. There are 29 other sites, and the whole system needs reform; adding new foods to smaller markets was one of my chief goals. And many neighborhoods clamour for farmers markets.

On competition, other non-profits like Value Added in Red Hook and a market organizer called Community Markets run farmers markets (and hybrid markets selling some but not all local foods) in NYC. FM management is a service like any other, and while it is specialized (ie it is not street fair or antique market mgt) it is not unique or rare.

If the city were to ask other FM organizers, it would simply write its own requirements, as with any bid, about local ingredients, and so on. Certainly using local foods in baked goods and preserves would be a minimum in my book.

I don't think a 'big city' has anything to do with corruption. There was particular management failure, if I may put it politely, at Greenmarket before I arrived, and as we've seen some things linger. And while it was depressing to be told 'we thought Greenmarket was all sewn up,' many FM in the US have trouble with simple things like farmers wanting monopolies. I have heard sad tales about upstate farmers markets controlled by farmers who don't allow new farmers in. 'Where am I supposed to sell my food?' the farmers asked me.

The question of independent market management arises at all farmers markets.

The key is management that serves farmers, customers, and the market organization itself, so that the three-legged stool of interests is in balance. Favor one too much, and the thing tips over.

In London at at Local Foods in DC (and another excellently-managed market there, Dupont Circle) management is independent of farmers, but it serves them because the farmers can go elsewhere.

At Greenmarket management is independent from farmers in name only. In practice, nothing gets done without farmer approval, and in practice that comes down to what is known at Greenmarket as a 'vocal minority' who do not always have the best interest of the market as a whole in mind. That is the main reason for stagnation. I know intimately farmers markets run wholly by farmers and they DO NOT thrive - not immediately, but eventually it shows.

By the way, the corporate structure of the farmers market mgt does not matter so much as a) its independence (from farmers, customers, local business) and b) its dedication to local foods and raising farm income. It could be for-profit, or non-profit, a civic group, or a cooperative, or an individual or even a farmer. In my experience any form works so long as a) and b) above, apply.


NO DESCRIPTIONS LIKE 'NO PESTICIDES' ON PRICE SIGNS

The rule about 'no descriptions about methods of production' was in fact liberalized at my encouragement during my brief tenure. The history, if you are into farmers market minutiae, is briefly this.

Greenmarket farmers who were NOT certified organic wanted to make claims such as 'no pesticides' - my own parents are good examples of uncertified organic growers and we have for a long time communicated directly withi customers about our methods of production. This is the chief virtue of a farmers market.

Some Greenmarket farmers who WERE certified organic did not wish to see claims, unverified by a third party, such as 'no pesticides.' (Greenmarket does not verify any claims in any case.)

Some Greenmarket farmers who DO USE chemicals did not want to be outdone by 'no pesticide signs'. As one person in favor of the ban told me, 'X is PROUD to use chemicals - he doesn't want other farmers putting up signs that say 'no chemicals'. Well, gee, if he's proud to use chemicals (and I buy a lot of veg from this farmer, as it happens) he shouldn't object to the signs of others. Or, to follow it to its logical conclusion, he should say he DOES use chemicals on his signs! One wonders why he doesn't.

The illogical (and anti-speech) policy which resulted from this confusion of interests (with no leadership from management) was 'no descriptions about methods of production' AT ALL unless certified organic. Among other difficulties, it left out other certified claims such as biodynamic or certified humane. In theory you'd be fined for writing 'my cows eat grass.'

The gag rule was the law when I arrived, and I argued strongly that all claims (which of course, under NYC law must be truthful) should be permissable and indeed encouraged.

Typically of a rule that's poorly derived it was unfairly, ie selectively enforced. I made clear that enforcing it at all was against my principles as a farmer and consumer and in the rules reforms, I argued to change it.

The compromise, logically senseless but a tiny step forward, which I helped to write and which passed after I was fired, was to OK VERBAL claims and claims on PAMPHLETS and BIG SIGNS, but not on price signs.

One of the main reasons for forcing the change is that Greenmarket itself had printed signs for farmers describing methods of production. Yikes, they now had to be made legal.

A sensible policy, of course, would be to encourage all communication about methods of production between teh farmer and the consumer. Any farmers market that doesn't simply doesn't respect the farmer or the eater.

BAKERS

Who are they? You've only to ask about the ingredients to learn who uses margarine and who uses real food. How did it come to be that commercial bakers dominate?

An odd rule at Greenmarket does not allow bakers with retail outlets in NYC to sell. This was intended to prevent commercial bakers from coming to market. It's illogical as it does not prevent those with retail outlets, in, say, Hoboken, to sell, and indeed, large retail outfits do attend Greenmarket. The result is large commissary bakers with factories and truckes all over the region.

A further odd rule, unwritten, is that no new bakers allowed. The idea here was that Greenmarket had TOO MANY baked goods. Well, yes, but the answer then, is to recruit more all-season local foods (such as milk and eggs) so that the market sdon't rely on sugar and white flour in the winter. And for a BAN on new bakers to work, you had to limit the amount of baked goods at each market. Sadly this wasn't the case. Every market got bakers; and the same bakers who have spaces now get ALL teh new spaces. Hence complacency.

The SOLE goal of ANY FM mgt with bakers should be to recruit new, small, artisanal bakers who don't have alternatives (where possible- start-ups are great), whose bread is unusual, can't be got elsewhere, and who use slocal methods and ingredients.

There are a tiny number of outstanding examples at Greenmarket. Fred Price is one of them.

HOW TO CHANGE THINGS?

Voting with your feet is crucial, of course. Buy from the slocal farms, like Flying Pig (with heritage and slow bacon and pastured eggs) and the innovative ones, like Nevia's vegetables or Ray Bradley or the young farmers like Dave and Kira of Evolutionary Organics (if you're at Thompkins Square or Grand Army). And make requests of the farmers adn the managers at the market itself. There is no point in grumbling in your coffee.

And write the Council on the Environment (www.cenyc.org) saying you want a first-class farmers market. Be specific: do you want chilled foods chilled by electricitiy? (I do)? Local ingredientsin pies? Me too. But you surely have your wish list.

ON PATRICK'S PIECE

Bravo to Patrick Martins, outgoing director of Slow Food USA, who points out that we need to develop the market for slocal foods in ways beyond farmers markets. Rather than the details of ideal farmers market management, the talk I've mostly been giving in the last two years is called Beyond Farmers Markets: Developing the Market for Local Foods.

It may seem odd when the direct marketing (ie no middle man) market is 30 years old and thriving that we should need middlemen, but we do.

The farm share (I don't use the term CSA) and FM markets (I don't care for the term movement) are well developed and they can be bigger and better. The addition of animal foods, for example, is key to both.

HOWEVER, we ALSO need to expand the markets for slocal foods where farmers are NOT meeting the customer directly. And that means middlemen.

I strongly encourage and have high praise for the folks who have worked nationally, as it were, to develop the m arket for slocal foods. Slow Food is one; Bill Niman is another; the possible regional wholesale market (undergoing a feasibility study now, under the aegis of Ag and Markets) is another.

In case no one has noticed, FM themselves are middlemen: in most cases, farmers don't organize these things. A specialized 'events organizer' creates the market for local foods; farmers and customers benefit from this middleman, who charges a fee.

I call these folks (in packaging, production, distribution, marketing) slocal foods entrepreneurs or middlemen with slocal foods values.

Bring them on!

Meanwhile, I hope you are enjoying wild ramps with romesco or asparagus with rich yellow spring grass butter, or whatever is local where you are. I'm enjoying my rich, grass-fed raw milk cream - sadly, something I can't get at Greenmarket. But the laws against raw milk sales are another matter!


Best wishes,

Nina

[Fat Guy]

docsconz, on Apr 24 2004, 01:20 PM, said:

Fat Guy, on Apr 24 2004, 12:25 PM, said:

The Union Square Greenmarket becomes more Soviet with each passing year. I've long been disgusted by the extent of the cynicism and hypocrisy, not that the organization's treatment of Nina Planck -- who was their last best hope of avoiding the dustbin of history -- was a surprise.

Before the Greenmarket can undergo its long-overdue renaissance, the current stranglehold is going to need to be broken. I intend to purchase nothing more at the Greenmarket until Nina Planck's suggestions are implemented or someone else is put in charge of the operation. Instead, I'll again be participating in Carnegie Hill/Yorkville CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) and shopping at Fairway.

The one problem with this plan is that some very good producers may be hurt if this becomes more widely adopted. As imperfect as the Greenmarket is (very), there are still some excellent producers selling their product there, many of whom are very upset with the current direction of the greenmarket. My suggestion would be to use the Market very selectively.

Nobody is going to adopt my plan, but were it to be widely adopted you'd see new Greenmarket management in about two seconds. The good vendors are wearing golden handcuffs right now; they dare not speak out aggressively for fear of winding up at the greenmarket on 408th Street and One-Millionth Avenue.

[tanabutler]

Quote

NO DESCRIPTIONS LIKE 'NO PESTICIDES' ON PRICE SIGNS

Greenmarket farmers who were NOT certified organic wanted to make claims such as 'no pesticides' - my own parents are good examples of uncertified organic growers and we have for a long time communicated directly withi customers about our methods of production. This is the chief virtue of a farmers market.

There is a very respected farmer/writer here named Andy Griffin at Mariquita Farm. He doesn't want or need to pay the high cost of being certified organic, because he's been farming for so long that his clientele trust him. It sounds like your parents are the same way. And yes, the ability to interact directly with the customers is one of the best things about a farmer's market. I have had the privilege to photograph about twenty organic farms. The farmers are all great--I consider their work to be as hard as mothering. Every morning they get up and take care of the little things so they'll live. It's mind-boggling, that kind of responsibility and commitment. (I had a baby who slept twelve hours a night and took two long naps in the daytime. I did not work as hard as a farmer. Not even.)

Quote

Some Greenmarket farmers who DO USE chemicals did not want to be outdone by 'no pesticide signs'. As one person in favor of the ban told me, 'X is PROUD to use chemicals - he doesn't want other farmers putting up signs that say 'no chemicals'. Well, gee, if he's proud to use chemicals (and I buy a lot of veg from this farmer, as it happens) he shouldn't object to the signs of others. Or, to follow it to its logical conclusion, he should say he DOES use chemicals on his signs! One wonders why he doesn't.

I propose t-shirts: "My food was irradiated and all I got was this bizarre skin condition."

Quote

The illogical (and anti-speech) policy which resulted from this confusion of interests (with no leadership from management)  was 'no descriptions about methods of production' AT ALL unless certified organic. Among other difficulties, it left out other certified claims such as biodynamic or certified humane. In theory you'd be fined for writing 'my cows eat grass.'

The gag rule was the law when I arrived, and I argued strongly that all claims (which of course, under NYC law must be truthful) should be permissable and indeed encouraged.

Well, this is just dumbfounding.

At our farmer's markets, the conventional people are less likely to tout it, because they know we're onto them. But they're sneaky: "no spray" could mean they use a different kind of systemic poison. I think my attitude is that all information should be open and permissible, providing there is some kind of way to check on the claims. I don't know what that way would be, but I'm sure you've given it thought.

Quote

A sensible policy, of course, would be to encourage all communication about methods of production between teh farmer and the consumer. Any farmers market that doesn't simply doesn't respect the farmer or the eater.

Beautifully put.

[Pan]

I really appreciate your post, Nina. Most instructive.

[Nina Planck]

ON CLAIMS

Just briefly, it's simply not sensible (or affordable) for market managers (of any stripe) to verify claims about methods of production. No farmers market does.

What every farmers market should do, however, is make a good effort to verify the PRODUCER-ONLY claim, by various means, including farm visits.

That is quite enough for any FM manager of integrity. It's also expensive, time-consuming, and imperfect. But all good FM do it.

So on 'our cows eat grass' or, in the case of my parents, 'our chickens run free on grass' - the customer needs to draw conclusions about which farmers he trusts.

[tanabutler]

Quote

the customer needs to draw conclusions about which farmers he trusts.

I like your thinking, Nina. And surely word of mouth among farmer's market regulars counts for a lot.

[ahr]

Quote

You've only to ask about the ingredients to learn who uses margarine and who uses real food.

It's always heartwarming to read a sentence like this.

So, for those who do not join FG's outright boycott (whether due to principle or the unavailability of a convenient CSA/whatever alternative), shall we start a thread about worthy producers, and what, where, and when they sell? Conversely, we can also identify the margarine-peddling hucksters.

[enrevanche]

Totally fascinating thread. (Nina, thanks especially for your input.)

I grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina, and was completely spoiled by the presence of the North Carolina State Farmer's Market downtown. Subsidized somewhat by the state government, both small farmers and larger commercial growers set up their wares in the sheds down there; every restaurant and serious amateur cook in town bought produce there. In spring and summer, a mindsnapping variety of fresh fruits and vegetables. Peaches and sweet corn to die for, etc. Going to the Farmer's Market was a social occasion to boot; you met friends and neighbors down there, or offered to bring goodies back to your neighbors if you were headed on a shopping expedition.

We should be able to do *at least* that well in New York City.

Union Square is my local Greenmarket, and I patronize it cautiously. There are still some gems to be found there, e.g. last weekend I bought some terrific ramps and a beautiful hunk of handmade blue cheese. As the season progresses, I know that I'll find fiddlehead ferns there, for instance. And there's this lady from New Jersey who always has beautiful okra in season (which as a native southerner I crave instinctively)--nicer than I've been able to find in any store.

I don't know that I could bring myself to totally boycott the place, but I do strongly believe in voting with my wallet and supporting the suppliers who are doing the right thing (and agitating like hell for change, which it sounds like is sorely needed.)

I'll be following developments there with considerable interest, and I'm gonna start making some noise.

[schaem]

Quote

And chefs, give up the Greenmarket party line already. We all know you hardly get any of your produce from the Greenmarket, so stop doing free advertising for these people. Instead, feature the best individual vendors without regard to their Greenmarket context (since they all deliver anyway). Guys like Tim Starck deserve the good PR, but they don't deserve to be stuck at that piece-of-shit Greenmarket.

I actually work at a restaurant that buys heavily from the Market. Most of the farmers don't actually deliver (except in emergencies). I think the idea of buying local, seasonal produce is very noble, and don't know of any reasonable alternative to our "two taxis, twice weekly" system of obtaining these goods. I would be glad to hear some alternatives for restaurants who want to keep it local.

Also, the other editorial regarding "national-local" produce I thought was perhaps more significant from a restaurant point of view. I think by focusing too much on "local" as opposed to "means-of-production", we do ourselves, or farmers, and our customers a disservice. The organic date farm I visited in Coachella (for example) deserves to be promoted outside of California.

This post has been edited by Jason Perlow: 24 April 2004 - 07:52 PM

[robyn]

tanabutler, on Apr 24 2004, 08:01 AM, said:

I'm sure that Greenmarket must be huge (she doesn't mention how much space or how many vendors there are) compared to Santa Cruz county's farmers markets...

I don't live in New York - but the market at Union Square certainly isn't "huge" in my opinion. I was only there once - but I recall it's around a square that's about 2 New York city blocks on each side. Wasn't "densely populated" with vendors when I was there. I've been to markets in other cities that were quite a bit larger.

Also - a note about margarine to those who have expressed opinions. It isn't my favorite - but it's certainly a key ingredient in many homemade baked goods in markets in the south. I consider its use to be a matter of regional preference - not a badge of dishonor. Robyn

[Atomic Lunch]

Wow, this was all extremely educational to a new New Yorker. Most of what I knew about the greenmarkets before I moved here is what I had read in Giving Good Weight by John McPhee.

I believe Nina's article is extremely important as well. Once those heavenly summer tomatos were gone, I found myself still addicted to the farmers market and tried to sate myself with baked goods. After a few lamentable attempts, I had given up, assuming that farmers just didn't know how to bake. I am heartened to know that this is probably not the case.

Big thanks to the Fat Guy for the info on the Yorkville CSA, which I will definitely look into as I live in Yorkville. (note to Bourdain, Upper East Side does NOT suck!)

Thanks again, Nina, for making me a little bit wiser consumer.

[robyn]

schaem, on Apr 24 2004, 09:42 PM, said:

Also, the other editorial regarding "national-local" produce I thought was perhaps more significant from a restaurant point of view.  I think by focusing too much on "local" as opposed to "means-of-production", we do ourselves, or farmers, and our customers a disservice.  The organic date farm I visited in Coachella (for example) deserves to be promoted outside of California.

I suspect that most people who live in the US aren't close to producers who produce a wide variety of things. For example - although I live in an area that has a fair amount of food production - it consists mainly of potatoes, cabbage, peppers (for hot pepper sauce) and cattle in the intermediate stages of production. We also have a major shrimp fleet. I don't think our local restaurants would be happy campers if they tried to buy everything locally. And I am not ready to live on a diet of potatoes and cabbage and hot sauce and shrimp - no matter how local or excellent these products are. Robyn

[robyn]

Atomic Lunch, on Apr 24 2004, 11:17 PM, said:

I believe Nina's article is extremely important as well. Once those heavenly summer tomatos were gone, I found myself still addicted to the farmers market and tried to sate myself with baked goods. After a few lamentable attempts, I had given up, assuming that farmers just didn't know how to bake. I am heartened to know that this is probably not the case.

I read an article recently which discussed the seasonal closing of the markets in (I believe) Chicago. There were people who thought they should be open all year long - but most people said - the produce is seasonal - the markets should be seasonal. So this raises another issue. Should markets be open all year in parts of the country where production is basically a spring to fall thing? Note that even in parts of the country where production is thought to be year round (like south Florida) - it really isn't. E.g., there are if I remember correctly 3 strawberry crop rotations - but there are times when there's nothing fresh to be had because the next crop isn't ripe for picking yet. And when it comes to something like citrus - yes - it grows year round - but the harvest only comes once a year. Robyn

[Pan]

ahr, on Apr 24 2004, 05:36 PM, said:

So, for those who do not join FG's outright boycott (whether due to principle or the unavailability of a convenient CSA/whatever alternative), shall we start a thread about worthy producers, and what, where, and when they sell? Conversely, we can also identify the margarine-peddling hucksters.

By all means, please start the thread and post a link here. I'd love to read all about it, and it would really be news I could use.

[tanabutler]

robyn, on Apr 24 2004, 09:04 PM, said:

Also - a note about margarine to those who have expressed opinions.  It isn't my favorite - but it's certainly a key ingredient in many homemade baked goods in markets in the south.  I consider its use to be a matter of regional preference - not a badge of dishonor.  Robyn

I am a born and bred Southerner, and consider margarine to be an abomination. And it's not like we grew up rich. Farthest thing from it.

Or maybe I'm the farthest thing from it, since I left Georgia three months after my eighteeth birthday. My underlying reason at the time: there were no health food stores open on Sunday.

I knew margarine was in the same league as CoffeeMate, CheezWhiz, and Cool Whip. I was so glad my grandparents had both in the refrigerator, so that those of us who couldn't stomach the additives could have a choice.

Margarine is an industrial product. It tastes like an industrial (substitute "corporate" if it helps you feel the evil), and it is the shoe polish of condiments.

Getting used to nasty products doesn't make for heritage. My Southern heritage goes back to an American Revolutionary war general in South Carolina. My taste, while marginal, doesn't ever include "margarine" as something that would earn compliments for the cook.

And yeah, people are used to it? So what? They're used to McDonald's, and I don't want to see Chicken McDooDoo sold as anything other than "caloric entertainment." 'Cause they aren't food. Yes, you can make a meal out of them, but they aren't food. Even if I consume fast food, no way do I want to find that kind of crap at my farmer's market. They're there to show ME how it can be.

That's what they'd been doing for years.

Go ahead, take my head off.

[docsconz]

I like the term "slocal"

[tanabutler]

I do, too, but it interferes with the California part of my brain that first parses it as "So Cal."

[docsconz]

[kinichiwa]

oh the farmer's market. In order to avoid the taxi problem, i try to use our company car to pick things up for the restaurant, and find the "NY Traffic" cops stake out the 8-6 spots. So the question is, do I venture up to Union Square or order from Satur Farms or Blooming hill Farms (natural and organic)? Sure it's great to stroll to the local markets and pick all the lovely seasonal fare, but I fnd myself dealing with local farmers who will deliver to the restaurant. I also find that the farmers who are working that way usually don't work the farmers markets because they are to busy supplying the already large demand.
About the margarine question... My Aunt Lestie (from Macon, Georgia) was a big Imperial Margarine fan for pie crust because she said the product was able to make a very flaky crust but kept the burn factor down.