[jogoode]

Can we put one finger on its origin or is it too complicated?

[jogoode]

Larousse implies natives of Perigord and Auvergne started it but a website for Aveyron claims it is the birthplace/inventor of bistro cooking...No ideas?

[fresh_a]

As far as I've always understood, the word "bistro" comes from the Russian word "bystro", which means "quickly" , and was probably introduced by the Cossacks in the 1814 occupation of Paris, as they shouted for faster service in local cafes, "Bystro! Bystro!". The word first appeared in French dictionaries in 1884.

Here is a link to one of the best articles on Parisian bistros I have ever read:

What Ever Happened to the Paris Bistrot?

Hope this helps!

[jogoode]

-The Larousse entry on 20th century France notes there was "a fashion for local bistrots, run by natives of Auvergne and Perigord, and also by gastronomic associations". These mysterious gastronomic associations are also mentioned in Sonnenfeld's Food: A Culinary History as among the groups who, along with the regionalist movement and people in the tourism and restaurant trades, pushed for the promotion and preservation of regional cuisine and family recipes in France in the 1930s.

-Toward the end of the 18th century, French tavernes and guinguettes, located outside city walls, were serving stews, meats with sauce, and organ meats. Rotisseurs and traiteur and charcutiers had been granted a monopoly on all cooked meat other than pates. In 1765, Boulanger served lamb at his shop and a lawsuit followed. He won the suit, somehow, and the scandal lead to the proliferation of restaurants, most of them expensive and "elegant". In the early 19th century, "dairy shops and soup kitchens", offering home-cooking at modest prices, appeared throughout the provinces. Restaurants of this sort in Lyon are called bouchons (defined in Larousse Gastronomique as a small bistro) and Sonnenfeld says they were the "most distinguished" and served strong cheese, leg of lamb salad, breaded tripe, quenelles, and chilled young beaujolais. People of Lyon seem more likely than those of Aveyron to be the people behind bistros in Paris since neither Aveyron nor its towns have come up in my research. Of course, as Patricia Wells says, "bistro cuisine knows no boundaries" and different French cities (i.e. Paris, Lyon, Marseilles, etc...) have their own style of bistro cooking.

Some websites say the "oldest" Parisian bistro, the "first" Parisian bistro, and "where the term bistro apparently started" is A La Mere Catherine in Montmartre (founded in 1783). Anyone know anything about this place???? Where the owner is from???

[Bux]

I suspect it's going to be too complicated for anyone to offer a precise origin. Presumably that type of restaurant predates the use of the name "bistrot.' It seems to be that "bistro" was the American spelling of the French word "bistrot," but nowadays "bistro" is considered by many the modern and hipper spelling to use in Paris -- or so I'm told. Then again, I've also read that "bistro" was the first form to appear.

Fresh_a's story may be apocryphal. I've repeated it myself as gospel a number of times. It's certainly the popular tale, although I've head "Russian soldiers" rather the "Cossacks," if that makes any difference. Working against this often repeated story is the fact that the word doesn't seem to be recorded anywhere until 1884. It's not that likely that an earlier use wouldn't have been found if the word was in popular use. To many, linguists in particular, this sounds much like a reverse engineered etymology.

We've had this discussion on eGullet before and I hate to repeat what's been said, and fear I may leave some things out. I could not find it in the France board, perhaps it's buried in some thread with a misleading topic or perhaps it was on another board. Patricia Wells, in Bistro Cooking, has the following to say:"Some suggest the word comes from 'bistrouille' or 'bistouille' which in the north of France refers to a mixture of coffee and eau-de-vie, or to a poor quality of eau-de-vie, both drinks one might find at a 'bistro.' Going one step further, we have the verb 'bistrouiller,' which refers to the preparation of an ersatz wine made with water, alcohol, and other products, which of course might be passed off as wine in a low-quality 'bistro.'"

Jim Scott, writing in North County Times said:
"Our rub today is the French bistro, or bistrot ---- both are correct, with bistro first appearing in 1884, followed by bistrot in 1892. The origin of the word is uncertain, but the most popular and romantic hypothesis is that it came from the Russian bystro (meaning quickly), introduced by Cossacks during the 1814 occupation of Paris as they shouted for faster service in cafes.
However, this picturesque interpretation is discounted by most lexicographers. They say that the word bistro probably came from Parisian argot meaning "proprietor of a tavern." Another less dreamy version is that bistro comes from the root bistre, meaning a somber and smokey place. I like the Russian version the best.
Whatever its origins, by 1901 the meaning had evolved into that of a local small cafe, pouring local wines ---- usually from carafes into water glasses ---- and serving modest foodstuffs made from local produce. Typical offerings were pates, cheeses and soups, along with daily specialties. Never expensive."

I too like the Russian version for its color, but I am beginning to doubt it more and more. None of this brings us closer to the definition of "bistro" nor much closer to its eact origin. That latter may be impossible as the bistro itself must have evolved over the last century, even if not as fast as it has in the last generation. For me personally, any historical image of French food dates to the period between the first and second world war. Is it a sign of my age, or do others find that period to be one of great significance?

Perhaps no one knows better what a French bistro should look like than Jean-Luc Perrier, an "antique dealer specialised in design and decoration of bistros !"

In my search I found something I coudn't help but include here. From Bistro - Sharon O/Connor a review by Stanley Eichelbaum:
"Sharon O’Connor’s 'Bistro' is an ambitious and engaging cookbook that covers all the bases with enthusiasm, charm and an acknowledged passion for French bistro cooking.
    O’Connor tells of being “hopelessly smitten” with her subject matter, and proceeds to unfurl it with sixty-eight recipes by the chefs of seventeen Paris bistros and three more in Quebec, New York and the Napa Valley. The two American bistros - the smash-hit Balthazar in Manhattan’s SoHo, and the more recent arrival, Bouchon, in Yountville - are so authentic they seem like transplants from France.
    In an unusual innovation, O’Connor provides mood music for the home cook who might need it in the form of a CD that accompanies the book. O’Connor is a musician (founder of the San Francisco String Quartet) as well as a cookbook author, and has turned out eleven previous works in her menu-and-music series."

If nothing else it solidifies my notion that most people can't tell a brasserie from a bistro although they are two entirely different types of establishments that flourished between the wars. Balthazar is the perfect ersatz brasserie setting although the food is a combination of brasserie, bistro and several American restaurant styles.

[Bux]

Joe, I've been told that many of the small cafes, bars and bistrots of Paris are owned and operated by Auvergnats. The Auvergne is a rural area and was rather impoverished. To a great extent this may apply to the Aveyron as well. There were few towns and fewer still those that could support a restaurant. Lyon is and was a big city with some prosperity that goes along with the commerce of a big bourgeois city. It had restaurants and a clientele that could make the restaurateurs prosperous at home. There was little need for them to export their restaurants.

On the other hand, there was poverty enough in the Auvergne to drive poor farmers off the land and into the cities looking for work. Then as now, in cities all over the world, it is the role of immigrants to do the work the locals do not, and to work harder to establish oneself with very little capital. All over the world, immigrants establish themselves by opening restaurants with little or no professional experience in cooking or restaurant management. With dad in the kitchen, mom at the cash register and the kids waiting tables, they make it by working 18 hour days as hard as they might have done at home, but with some hope of income. The Auvergnats opened restaurants in Paris not because they were experienced in operating restaurants at home, but because there was no business at home. The Lyonnaise stayed where they were fat and comfortable.


Edit: Re-reading my post, I seem a bit bombastic. It is of course conjecture based on what I do know, but it is not likely to be the whole story. The history of the world is complex and there are many threads that make up the whole cloth.

This post has been edited by Bux: 01 July 2003 - 11:22 AM

[John Whiting]

fresh_a, on Jul 1 2003, 02:39 PM, said:

Here is a link to one of the best articles on Parisian bistros I have ever read:

What Ever Happened to the Paris Bistrot?

This article has the disadvantage of being four years old. A lot has happened since then, both positive and negative. L'Ardoise, for instance, has plummeted to the point where Pudlowski gives it one of his rare Aei! Aei! Aei! condemnations (deserved, in my recent experience).

At the risk of self aggrandizement, let me suggest a glance at my own website. If you do a Google search on "paris bistrots", it comes up second and third. Or click on the link below and then on Paris Bistros at the top.

[fresh_a]

Thanks for your interest, John, I'm well aware the article is out-of-date, but presented it as a good piece of writing on the typical Parisian bistrot,that I personally liked, not as an up-to-date guide. The guide I have lodged away in my head...

[Felice]

Fresh A...would you mind sharing your favorites?

If you had to choose just one or two?

Merci!

[Louisa Chu]

Joe, A La Mere Catherine is supposedly the place where the Cossack/Russian story first played out - as fresh_a and Bux said. It's on the Square Tertre - where all the artist/entrepreneurs set up easels or wander around with paper and scissors in hand, ready to render you in paper silhouette - up on Montmartre. I have not eaten there and I do not know anything more about the original or current owners.

There was a heart-wrenching article in Saveur a few years ago about the last surviving bistros of the old Paris Les Halles era. You should be able to read it on their site.

Felice, fresh_a's too busy eating at the finest dining in town. If I could just put in a votes for Chez Clovis and Chez Denise, a couple of the survivors from the article mentioned above.

[Images]

We had a wonderful meal at Bistro d a Cote's Bistrot Flaubert Sunday night in Paris.

They had no fixed price menu for dinner so we ordered la carte. I noticed not one table had a bottle of wine on it, only glasses and half bottles. We ordered a half bottle with our meal. Our entree was served only moments after we ordered. We ate slowly, I didn't want to rush things and my lobster, cheese raviloi salad was 23 Euros. As soon as we finished, our fish arrived. No pause between courses at all. The sea bream was well flavored and the scallops tender. Problem was, as soon as we finished, our hot chocolate, soft center cake arrived. Again, no time at all between courses. I was not used to this at dinner in Paris. I was getting irrated. The cake was perfectly cooked, and oh so delicious. I was very happy we had only ordered an half bottle of wine, because dinner was over in a bit over 1 hour. 5 minutes after we finished our dessert, our check arrived. We hadn't asked for our check, but it arrived. I decided it was time to question our waiter. I really wanted to know what was going on. He explained that since they were a bistro, lunch and dinner both, should be served in one hours time. I told him we had dined at Bistrot Villiers and Dessirier, both Bistrot d a Cotes and didn't have dinner served so quickly. He said that they were in a different part of town and this was the business part of town, so this was the proper way to serve dinner. Just a note, dinner ended up costing 110 Euros for 2 entrees, 2 fish plates and 1 dessert and 1/2 bottle of wine.

We did have a thrill here when we saw Ben Stiller and a group of friends also dining here Sunday evening!

I have been enjoying meals in Paris several times a year for 5 years, but guess I still have alot to learn.

Please explain to me the definition of a bistro!

Thanks so much.

[jgould]

in addition to the meaning of a bistro, this would be called the "bum's rush"

[Louisa Chu]

The official food geek/historian - redundant - answer to what's a bistro is that it supposedly goes back to the Russian occupation of Paris - Russian soldiers pounding their fists on tables demanding quick service - "Bistro! Bistro!" or "Quick! Quick!" Obviously they did not understand that that is also the international request for "Please spit in my food."

And the first bistro born of that ill-fated idea was supposedly La Mere Catherine Restaurant up in Montmartre.

As for how to define it now - good question - and I'm not even going to try this late at night.

And the waiter's explanation? Bullshit - utter bullshit.

Ben Stiller - I've spotted him out at dinner too - back in Beverly Hills - with Calista Flockhart when they were dating. Maybe he's a foreshadowing of a bad dining experience to come.

[Basildog]

........and can someone tell me what the difference between bistro and bistrot is?

[Pan]

Basildog, on Feb 17 2004, 08:03 PM, said:

........and can someone tell me what the difference between bistro and bistrot is?

The letter "t" of course.

[Pan]

loufood, on Feb 17 2004, 07:53 PM, said:

The official food geek/historian - redundant - answer to what's a bistro is that it supposedly goes back to the Russian occupation of Paris

When was that, and how did it come about?

[Bux]

Pan, on Feb 17 2004, 08:35 PM, said:

Basildog, on Feb 17 2004, 08:03 PM, said:

........and can someone tell me what the difference between bistro and bistrot is?

The letter "t" of course.

Sharp eyes pan.

I will swear we've had this discussion before. I suppose we will have it again and I really should search for the original thread, if only so as I give the same answer and not be embarrassed by the person who finds both threads. I've long believed bistrot is the French spelling and bistro the American spelling, but upon careful observation I've found both spellings in France. Bistro seems to be the hipper more modern spelling and possibly an American influence. If I find that thread, I'll remember what a French chef said to me about those two spellings.

[Bux]

Images, on Feb 17 2004, 06:22 PM, said:

Our entree was served only moments after we ordered. ... As soon as we finished, our fish arrived. No pause between courses at all. ... as soon as we finished, our hot chocolate, soft center cake arrived. ... dinner was over in a bit over 1 hour. 5 minutes after we finished our dessert, our check arrived. We hadn't asked for our check, but it arrived.

Quelle horreur. The check without asking for it is especially un-French or at least un-traditional. The speed of the meal is something else. I do not like to eat like that, even in the states. We, Mrs. B and I, are far more likely to complain about the speediness of a meal than the time we have to wait between courses, although that can be stretched into the absurd as well.

We have been spending more time in Spain and naturally eating more meals in Spanish restaurants and we've been astounded at how soon our food arrives. In wonderful restaurants, or should I say restaurants with wonderful food, I find myself taking the last bite of a dish as the server is standing next to me with my next course. I've written about this in the Spain forum and had the response from one Spanish food critic was that he knows of a chef in the north of Spain who tells his waiters to deliberately slow the meal down when there are French tourists at the table. The Spanish, oddly enough and at great surprise to me, generally like to pace their meals much faster than the French. There are a great many differences between eating and dining and the pace of the meal is just one of those. There is, of course, that one step down called feeding, but it's generally reserved for those one step down on the food chain.

[John Whiting]

My wife and I had a similar not-to-be-repeated experience at Le Pamphlet. http://www.whitings-...ws/pamphlet.htm Fortunately this is very much the exception. Chez Mâitre Paul works in two evening sittings, but does it with leisurely tact. http://www.whitings-...eviews/paul.htm

This post has been edited by John Whiting: 18 February 2004 - 06:13 AM

[Louisa Chu]

Pan, on Feb 17 2004, 08:36 PM, said:

loufood, on Feb 17 2004, 07:53 PM, said:

The official food geek/historian - redundant - answer to what's a bistro is that it supposedly goes back to the Russian occupation of Paris

When was that, and how did it come about?

Alright - you're baiting me - because you suspect I'm the aforementioned geek - Seige of 1814 - history lesson here.

[Bux]

loufood, on Feb 18 2004, 10:21 AM, said:

history lesson

The only thing we need to know about history is that it keeps coming around and that we will get the chance to repeat any mistakes we didn't get right the first time. Or as it's been explained to me, history will kick you in the ass every time.

Okay, someone had to find the thread I mentioned earlier and I was probably the designee. I suppose that's why I have the corner office with my title on the door (at least in this virtual reality called eGullet).

Everyone should stop and read Bistros, Bistro Cooking, paying particular attention to my posts of July 1, 2003, before continuing on with this thread. There will be a test on Monday.

Required reading for the course is any of the menus from establishments mentioned in this thread. Extra credit will be given for field research.

This post has been edited by Bux: 18 February 2004 - 12:41 PM

[Pan]

Thanks, Louisa.

Bux, as it stands, that link leads right back to this thread.

[Lyle]

Bux, on Feb 18 2004, 10:40 AM, said:

Everyone should stop and read definition of a bistro, paying particular attention to my posts of July 1, 2003, before continuing on with this thread. There will be a test on Monday.

Required reading for the course is any of the menus from establishments mentioned in this thread. Extra credit will be given for field research.

Because I always stay prepared for proposed tests, the proper link.

Thanks for nuthin', Bux. Because of that, I'd re-read this same thread almost thirty times before I figured out your mistake.

[menton1]

I have always thought of a bistro as small and simple, both in ambience and cuisine. Less formal as well.

As far as the spelling with a "t", a French friend has told me that "bistro" is both an English and a French word, and the French spelling with the "t" is an example of Old French, which stopped about 100 years ago. It is trendy, though, for some proprietors to choose the old spelling....

This post has been edited by menton1: 18 February 2004 - 11:43 AM

[Bux]

Pan, on Feb 18 2004, 12:32 PM, said:

Bux, as it stands, that link leads right back to this thread.

Indeed it does. I had so many open windows, including an extra one of this thread that I copied and pasted the wrong one without even noticing. I've edited my post and with a little luck future readers will not go chasing their own tail because of my mistake.

It was all worth it because Lyle's response is the funniest thing I've read here in some time.

[Louisa Chu]

Le Violon is closed on Sundays and Mondays. The default Sunday dinner place in the 7th is usually La Fontaine de Mars. L'Arpege was open last week - but they're closed weekends. Another place closed for vacations until March 1st is Poujauran.

[John Talbott]

I’ve started this new topic because I think Felice’s question here is a great one and merits further discussion.

Quote

I am not entirely clear how people are defining Neo-Bistro and Gastro-Bistro and if there is a clear difference.  To me a classic bistro would be one that is really serving classic dishes without updating them.

Margaret Pilgrim defined a neo in this topic:

Quote

My husband and I eat an average of 40 dinners a year in Paris. We patronize small, neo-bistros run by young, adventurous chefs who cook with passion and construct amazing dishes from the best products of the market: La Villeret, Repaire du Cartouche, Clos du Gourmet, La Dinee, Les Amognes, Les Magnolias, twice last year at L'Astrance, most ranging 14 to 16 Gault Millau points. Except to a couple of places in the headlines, few Americans venture to the outer arrondisements that draw and support these new and ambitious chefs.  Regardless that we are Americans, the welcome and service in these houses is almost universally warm and professional.  The prices are within 50 to 100FF of Regalade.

And Steve Plotnicki said

Quote

In general, I find the neo-bistros to be price driven and I always seem to find it in the food. And at places like Frechon, or Violin D'Ingres, where the scope of the cooking is more ambitious, it always sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Aha, here is where they are saving money to be able to serve you a dish in the style of a 2 star restaurant at a $40 prix fixe. And that is one of the reasons I liked Regalade. Instead of the effort expended into applying fancy technique into smaller portions or not the greatest ingredients, they serve simple cuisine d'pays with a twist and use top notch ingredients. And I know that for a fact because last time I was there I spoke with Yves Camdeborde about it and he was telling us his sources for ingredients. Almost all of the things he uses come from small southwestern farmers that he hand picks and brings up to Paris every week.

As long as I'm giving him a plug, I can recall the best dish I ever ate there, which I have to admit is one of the best dishes I've ever eaten to this day. It was Foie Gras Confit avec Confiture de Prunes. They brought a large glass jar to the table and it was full of slices of preserved 1/4 rounds of foie gras that were preserved to the point where if you held it in your hand and tried to break one it would be firm enough to crumble. I don't know how they got it that way. When I buy a terrine of foie at home, after three days in the fridge it starts turning funky. But these were great. And the jar must have had 30 rounds! Eat as much as you want. Then a crock of home made prune jam and a little dish of coarse salt. It was really fantastic and for me summarized what the neo-bistro can do well. And it's funny because having eaten at Club Gascon last week, it's not at all that different than the foie Camdeborde served me. And just as an aside, my Pork with Prune Cream at La Trouvaille two weeks ago was modern in the same way. But unfortunately I didn't find the level of execution there to be as good as either Club Gascon or Regalade.

Cabrales - Your questions about the 3 seatings at Regalade is in line with my comment that the neo-bistros try and find some way to cut corners. The entire neo-bistro trend was a result of the recession in France, and the fact that rising chefs couldn't afford to open "haute" places, as well as the French public wanting affordable meals. So someone like Christian Constant might make dinner affordable by limiting portion size, or cutting back on the type and/or quality of ingredients. Regalade has attacked that problem by offering 3 seatings. But my jar of preserved foie gras was stuffed to the gills, even though I might have had a shorter window to eat it. And as far as I know, Regalade is the only place to have 3 seatings.

And lots of folk say that La Regalade was the quintessential gastro bistro while Chocolate & Zucchini calls

Quote

L'Ami Jean in the 7th, a South-West gastro-bistro.

And Joe Ray said

Quote

The concept is so simple, it's a wonder nobody thought of it sooner: Michelin Red Guide star-worthy food, a jovial atmosphere, and prices one can actually afford. Enter the gastro bistro. Originally seen as a group of culinary outcasts on the edge of town, this movement seems more than a fad when one considers two recent events in the heart of Paris….. La Régalade, Le Comptoir du Relais Saint-Germain, Senderens, Le Beurre Noisette….

[Felice]

I'm not sure this answered my question.

I always thought the two terms were used interchangably, one possibly a British/American term and the other being French. I think in France, I usually hear the term Néo-bistro and have no idea if this term is used in English. It wasn't when I lived in the US as far as I remember.

I think I remember Ptipois answering this question at some point, so hopefully she will chime in.

[John Talbott]

First off, Felice, I didn't mean to supply the quotes to answer your query but to start the discussion off with what some of our members have said in the past.
But since I started this off by dividing the bistrots into three groups

Quote

One classic bistrot l’Ami Jean

One neo-bistrot Cerisaie

One gastro-bistrot Le Repaire de Cartouche

here, let me try to explain how I meant to differentiate them.
Classic to me means you make the dish (lets take cassoulet) the same way your grandmother did it.
Neo to me means you update dishes (say cassoulet by using different spices).
And gastro carries the implication of more like a grand restaurant (so the cassoulet now has pureed mushrooms).
The analogies/examples need more work and I agree we need input from our boots on the ground here who read extensively and know everything.
Also I'm darned if I can remember where, but I did see an article on the distinction. In Omnivore maybe. I think it's in my archives, once I get back to the cave where they're stored.

[Ptipois]

One should never forget that bistrot is defined by price, which should be moderate (but not always).
It is also defined by a particular décor, also shared by the brasserie to some extent: lots of mirrors, brass bars, Moleskine seats. But not always.

The only permanent element of bistrot definition is that it is a Parisian phenomenon, descended from the bougnat — a place where wines, coals, firewood and cheap lunches used to be sold, always run by people from Auvergne or Rouergue (who still own most of the cafés in Paris) — and from the Parisian troquet or corner café, also traditionally run by Auvergnats. Traditional bistrot dishes are a mix of Auvergne dishes, cuisine bourgeoise and old Parisian cooking.

I think John is right in his classification of bistrots. However I would not venture into giving my own classification here. I think it is already very hard to establish a typology of bistrots, restaurants, brasseries, so it would be even harder to pin them down as gastro, néo, tradi, etc., since most bistrots do a little or much of every genre.

For instance L'Ami Jean (as used to be the case with Camdeborde's La Régalade) could be described as a bistrot traditionnel, but the chef is equally at ease with more innovative dishes. Le Pré Verre is definitely a néo-bistrot, since it does not serve petit salé aux lentilles but there is a touch of surprise from the chef in every dish. Is Le Caméléon néo or traditional, I could not tell. Sensing is quite néo but it is not a bistrot. Et cetera.