[mongo_jones]

for pho fanatics:

i've been to pho houses in which the only herb you're given is basil, and to ones in which you're instead given cilantro, and also to places that give you both. is there some sort of regional or traditional variation at work here? or is this a case of things changing as pho leaves vietnam and comes to the u.s?

furthermore, at the vietnamese restaurant we had dinner in last night there was a bit of a commotion when the young woman at the table next to ours asked the waiter for plum sauce to go with her pho. he recoiled in horror and said that plum sauce would not go well with pho. due to a language barrier (he's vietnamese, she's a young anglo-american) it wasn't clear for a while as to whether he thought he was being asked his opinion on compatability or refusing to bring the offending plum sauce. since i'd overheard her complaining to her companion that she'd mistakenly laced her broth with too much hot sauce i attempted to intervene and suggested she amend matters with the provided hoisin sauce instead. at this point she informed us all (much to the waiter's consternation) that in d.c she was used to eating pho with plum sauce. eventually, a more english-fluent member of the staff was summoned, some plum sauce was procured and everyone, except possibly the original waiter, was happy.

now, i'm no authority on pho or vietnamese cuisine in general. all i know is what i've eaten in a variety of establishments in los angeles. i've never encountered plum sauce as a condiment for pho before. is this yet another regional variation or is it perhaps the case that the restaurants in d.c referred to may have been pan-asian restaurants that happened to have plum sauce on the table as well? i suppose it is also possible she only mentioned the d.c thing to not seem foolish.

anyone?

[Jason Perlow]

In the NY/NJ area Pho is usually accompanied by HOISIN sauce along with other condiments such as bean sprouts, basil, cilantro, lime wedges, chili pepper slices, sriracha, etc. Some people confuse hoisin sauce for plum sauce, but they are not the same thing.



This is a plate of Pho condiments at Saigon Republic in Englewood, NJ. The condiment in the little dish is in fact hoisin sauce.



Here is a plate of condiments for Pho at Binh Duong in Belleville, NJ. The hoisin sauce is in a squirt bottle on each table.

[tommy]

in addition to what jason said, i see what i assume to be vietnamese folks using the sauce (hoisin) more often than not. it's usually some sort of uber-dexterous maneuver involving a spoon with the meat and the sauce and chopsticks for the noodles all at once.

[Chris Cognac]

I was thinking of getting some Pho for dinner this evening, you just made my decision for me...And I will not be getting any plum sauce! Now the only decision is where...Saigon Dish, Pho House or Pho Hoa.

[mongo_jones]

i don't suppose we have any vietnamese specialists among us.

i was introduced to pho by a vietnamese co-worker many years ago in los angeles. she taught me to mix my hot sauce and my hoisin in with the broth, throw in everything else and eat. the place that we used to get pho from only ever gave us basil (never cilantro). now, she's just one person so i'm hesitant to formulate any theories about standard pho procedure from any of this but as a result my own pho preferences are set: chilli sauce, hoisin, lime, green chillis, basil, sprouts--all in the broth with the noodles and meat (ideally a mix of brisket, flank, tendon and tripe). i don't know how spicy most people like their pho but i like my broth to be pretty close to battery acid. in this too i am guided by my ex-colleague's example. this is how i like it but i don't raise eye-brows at other people's practices since for all i know mine is farther from the norm than theirs.

that being said i can't imagine what it would taste like with plum sauce and i don't want to find out. also: i really don't like it with cilantro; pho places in koreatown in l.a usually serve it only with cilantro. i'd thought this might be a korean take on it but this is also how the local vietnamese place here does it (and i see cilantro in jason's picture 1 above too). my wife likes to lace her broth with dangerous amounts of chilli sauce and then also squeeze some onto a plate to further dip pieces of meat into. but she's korean and what does she know? we're both uber-dexterous in the manner tommy describes though. i like to think it gives us street-cred here in colorado (which is not what you would call chopstick-friendly).

edited to add: the woman last night was adamant that she knew the difference between hoisin and plum sauce (there was a squeeze bottle of hoisin right next to the sriracha on their table) and that she'd always been served her pho with plum sauce before (in d.c). i'm more and more inclined to think that this was a face-saving claim and not a commentary on the state of pho in d.c--though there might be a strange symmetry to another assault on vietnamese culture in the capital of the u.s.

This post has been edited by mongo_jones: 07 February 2004 - 05:41 PM

[gus_tatory]

in Montreal, we are served usually the garnish platters that Jason shows above. that is, mung bean sprouts, Thai or Holy basil (but that looks like coriander in his 1st photo), lime wedges, and bird chilis.
my understanding is, from a really good recipe i found here--do a search for soupe tonkinoise (it's flash: i can't provide the direct link, sorry) is that since the coriander stems (and possibly the roots too), are already in the soup, you don't get more coriander.
i could be wrong.
but plum sauce?! yeah, i think she meant hoisin sauce.

edit to add: oh never mind, there's basil in the 2nd photo...

This post has been edited by gus_tatory: 07 February 2004 - 07:57 PM

[skchai]

The recipe in Mai Pham's Pleasures of the Vietnamese Table (Harper Collins, 2001), which does an excellent job with the historical background, is similar - the cilantro is added to the broth at the end of cooking; the basil is added at the table.

Apparently the pho we know and love has a relatively short history - some argue that it was an adaptation of French pot-au-feu.

[mongo_jones]

skchai, on Feb 7 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

The recipe in Mai Pham's Pleasures of the Vietnamese Table (Harper Collins, 2001), which does an excellent job with the historical background, is similar - the cilantro is added to the broth at the end of cooking; the basil is added at the table.

Apparently the pho we know and love has a relatively short history - some argue that it was an adaptation of French pot-au-feu.

it is always interesting how "tradition" gets created. thanks for the link skchai!

[Rachel Perlow]

mongo_jones, on Feb 7 2004, 07:37 PM, said:

my own pho preferences are set: chilli sauce, hoisin, lime, green chillis, basil, sprouts--all in the broth with the noodles and meat (ideally a mix of brisket, flank, tendon and tripe). i don't know how spicy most people like their pho but i like my broth to be pretty close to battery acid.

Based on this, you might like to sample Bun Bo Hue next time you're in a good Pho shop. Not the same anise flavored broth, but spicy with lots of interesting tidbits in the soup.

[ecr]

Here in Saigon we never get cilantro with pho. The accompaniments are hoisin (never plum sauce!) and sriracha or similar; a wedge of lime; sliced red chili (not the small super hot ones, the larger ones); and a veg plate with bean sprouts, basil, mint sometimes, and usually that slightly sawtooth green (rau mau in Vietnamese I think).
In Hanoi you don't get often get the veg plate, that's a southern thing.

Also a lot of pple in the south like pho ga (chicken) .... well, it's not available now what with the avian flu thing, but it's not an unusual variation when chicken can be sourced. And Vietnamese beef is really not very tasty (though the pho broth is).

Someone mentioned bun bo Hue --- what I love about this dish is that it comes with a HUGE plate of mixed lettuces and shredded lemongrass, mix it in and it's like eating a salady soup (or soupy salad) ... and the fresh pounded chili sauce (red chilis, garlic, lime, maybe some fish sauce) is always on the table to accompany.

[mongo_jones]

Rachel Perlow, on Feb 7 2004, 09:37 PM, said:

mongo_jones, on Feb 7 2004, 07:37 PM, said:

my own pho preferences are set: chilli sauce, hoisin, lime, green chillis, basil, sprouts--all in the broth with the noodles and meat (ideally a mix of brisket, flank, tendon and tripe). i don't know how spicy most people like their pho but i like my broth to be pretty close to battery acid.

Based on this, you might like to sample Bun Bo Hue next time you're in a good Pho shop. Not the same anise flavored broth, but spicy with lots of interesting tidbits in the soup.

i didn't realize i'd given the impression that i am new to vietnamese food--i'm not an expert on it but i've been eating it for a long time now. i like the bun soups, but prefer pho.

[jschyun]

In Orange County, we usually go to a place that serves everyting on Jason's plate and the sawtooth herb. I don't think we get cilantro there, but I've seen cilantro in other places.

[tommy]

the only place i usually see cilantro served is at that place that jason took those pictures. basil is usually the only herb, and sometimes that sawtooth stuff.

[Susan in FL]

I am relatively new to Vietnamese food, and I was going to post a topic on pho, since I had some yesterday afternoon!! My favorite Chinese restaurant, Leanh's, now has a Vietnamese menu and her pho is the only I've eaten. I wish I had photographed it. Beautiful food, and delicious.
I was going to ask, what is the "proper" way to eat it? Not that I'm hung up on proper, so I guess I should ask, how do you eat it? I'm speaking of utensils. I was given chop sticks, a big spoon, a little spoon, one of those oriental soup spoons [pardon me for not knowing what to call that], and a fork. I used the oriental spoon for broth, and the big spoon and fork for twirling the noodles like pasta, and the chop sticks for dipping meat into the hoisin sauce and for whatever I could put in my mouth without dripping broth all over. If I commited a faux pas, it was OK. I was one of only a few customers since it was between the lunch and dinner hours. But immediately, I knew I wanted to do some reading on pho and consult with eG-ers!
I also wondered if this was a typical or authentic version of pho, and you all have answered that. It was. The bean sprouts were in the soup, however, and there were "meatballs" in it, the likes of which I had never tasted before. It was topped with basil and cilantro. The squirt bottle of hoisin sauce and the sriracha were on the table, as were the lemon (?) wedges. Pho ga was on the menu, as was a seafood version.
For this restaurant-impaired area, this was great. I'm looking forward to trying out more Vietnamese food when I'm traveling. Any advice?

[mongo_jones]

Susan in FL, on Feb 8 2004, 12:25 PM, said:

I am relatively new to Vietnamese food, and I was going to post a topic on pho, since I had some yesterday afternoon!!  My favorite Chinese restaurant, Leanh's, now has a Vietnamese menu and her pho is the only I've eaten.  I wish I had photographed it.  Beautiful food, and delicious.
I was going to ask, what is the "proper" way to eat it?  Not that I'm hung up on proper, so I guess I should ask, how do you eat it?  I'm speaking of utensils.  I was given chop sticks, a big spoon, a little spoon, one of those oriental soup spoons [pardon me for not knowing what to call that], and a fork.  I used the oriental spoon for broth, and the big spoon and fork for twirling the noodles like pasta, and the chop sticks for dipping meat into the hoisin sauce and for whatever I could put in my mouth without dripping broth all over.  If I commited a faux pas, it was OK. I was one of only a few customers since it was between the lunch and dinner hours.  But immediately, I knew I wanted to do some reading on pho and consult with eG-ers!
I also wondered if this was a typical or authentic version of pho, and you all have answered that.  It was.  The bean sprouts were in the soup, however, and there were "meatballs" in it, the likes of which I had never tasted before.  It was topped with basil and cilantro.  The squirt bottle of hoisin sauce and the sriracha were on the table, as were the lemon (?) wedges.  Pho ga was on the menu, as was a seafood version.
For this restaurant-impaired area, this was great.  I'm looking forward to trying out more Vietnamese food when I'm traveling.  Any advice?

susan, see above for my pho credentials (non-existent). that being said, i use the chopsticks for the noodles and meat, the soup spoon for the broth; not sure why you need anything but those two. perhaps they were covering all the cutlery bases? if the restaurant's clientele is largely anglo they probably have a default service that may have nothing to do with the clientele's actual abilities and preferences.

and i've seen meatballs in many a hardcore pho house (nothing but working class vietnamese patrons) in gardena and torrance in l.a, so i don't think their presence means you're getting something unusual. however, in my experience it is very unusual for the broth to come with everything in it. usually the broth will have just the noodles (and maybe the still mostly raw meat on top)--you mix everything else to your liking. or at least this is how every pho place i've been to in the u.s has done it.

(edit to fix grammar)

This post has been edited by mongo_jones: 08 February 2004 - 12:44 PM

[Jason Perlow]

tommy, on Feb 8 2004, 01:53 PM, said:

the only place i usually see cilantro served is at that place that jason took those pictures.  basil is usually the only herb, and sometimes that sawtooth stuff.

I've seen cilantro used at other vietnamese restaurants in Pho garnish plates but usually it is of a asian variety. Binh Duong serves it with cilantro, it was on the other side of that plate.

Saigon Republic doesn't really serve a "traditional" pho, but it's damn good.

[tommy]

Jason Perlow, on Feb 8 2004, 02:54 PM, said:

Binh Duong serves it with cilantro, it was on the other side of that plate.

and, from what i can see in that pic, red cabbage!?!

i think i usually just ignore the cilantro if i see it. i pretend it's not there.

[Jason Perlow]

tommy, on Feb 8 2004, 03:07 PM, said:

Jason Perlow, on Feb 8 2004, 02:54 PM, said:

Binh Duong serves it with cilantro, it was on the other side of that plate.

and, from what i can see in that pic, red cabbage!?!

i think i usually just ignore the cilantro if i see it. i pretend it's not there.

Actually, the condiment plate I have a picture of is not actually the Pho condiment plate. Its the Bun Bo Hue condiment plate, which has (in addition to the standard pho stuff) red cabbage as well as lettuce.

The actual pho condiment plate I beleive was cilantro (asian cilantro), sprouts, basil, limes, sliced chiles.

We ordered like 3 soups and like 6 appetizers that evening, so its easy to confuse all the condiment plates.

[tommy]

well i just don't recall cilantro with my pho garnish at Binh Duong.

[Hest88]

In the places I go to, here in the Bay Area, the broth usually has the meat, noodles, cilantro, and onions. The condiment plate has bean sprouts, lime, and peppers. The hoisin sauce is always just in a squeeze bottle in the same way the chili sauce is.

I've seen cilantro used as a substitute for basil, though, but only when the the restaurant has run out of basil.

[trillium]

mongo_jones, on Feb 8 2004, 11:43 AM, said:

Susan in FL, on Feb 8 2004, 12:25 PM, said:

I am relatively new to Vietnamese food, and I was going to post a topic on pho, since I had some yesterday afternoon!!  My favorite Chinese restaurant, Leanh's, now has a Vietnamese menu and her pho is the only I've eaten.  I wish I had photographed it.  Beautiful food, and delicious.
I was going to ask, what is the "proper" way to eat it?  Not that I'm hung up on proper, so I guess I should ask, how do you eat it?  I'm speaking of utensils.  I was given chop sticks, a big spoon, a little spoon, one of those oriental soup spoons [pardon me for not knowing what to call that], and a fork.  I used the oriental spoon for broth, and the big spoon and fork for twirling the noodles like pasta, and the chop sticks for dipping meat into the hoisin sauce and for whatever I could put in my mouth without dripping broth all over.  If I commited a faux pas, it was OK. I was one of only a few customers since it was between the lunch and dinner hours.  But immediately, I knew I wanted to do some reading on pho and consult with eG-ers!
I also wondered if this was a typical or authentic version of pho, and you all have answered that.  It was.  The bean sprouts were in the soup, however, and there were "meatballs" in it, the likes of which I had never tasted before.  It was topped with basil and cilantro.  The squirt bottle of hoisin sauce and the sriracha were on the table, as were the lemon (?) wedges.  Pho ga was on the menu, as was a seafood version.
For this restaurant-impaired area, this was great.  I'm looking forward to trying out more Vietnamese food when I'm traveling.  Any advice?

susan, see above for my pho credentials (non-existent). that being said, i use the chopsticks for the noodles and meat, the soup spoon for the broth; not sure why you need anything but those two. perhaps they were covering all the cutlery bases? if the restaurant's clientele is largely anglo they probably have a default service that may have nothing to do with the clientele's actual abilities and preferences.

and i've seen meatballs in many a hardcore pho house (nothing but working class vietnamese patrons) in gardena and torrance in l.a, so i don't think their presence means you're getting something unusual. however, in my experience it is very unusual for the broth to come with everything in it. usually the broth will have just the noodles (and maybe the still mostly raw meat on top)--you mix everything else to your liking. or at least this is how every pho place i've been to in the u.s has done it.

(edit to fix grammar)

I agree.

There are plenty of places where you can pick from a smorgasboard of other offerings besides just raw beef (tripe, flank, brisket, tendon, meatballs etc) but usually you get to pick what you want. The cooked meats always come mixed in but I've never seen cilantro given or the garnishes already added into the soup. The whole point is to flavor it to your liking. I, for instance, never add hoisin to mine, can't stand the stuff, put in lots and lots of sliced chillies and lime juice along with the sawtooth corriander, basil and beansprouts. The partner likes much less lime juice, and siracha in addition to the sliced chillies.

Usually you hold the chopsticks in your right hand (if you're right handed) and use it to put noodles and other bits straight into your mouth or you also use them to load up the spoon (which is held in your left hand) with the right balance of stuff and then stuff that (from the spoon) into your mouth. Now I'm hungry.

regards,
trillium

[tissue]

I don't add sriricha and hoisin directly in my broth. Most places I go to have a little sauce dish that I can add it to.

I like beef pho with brisket and tendon only, then I add basil, cilantro, lime juice, chiles, sawtooth greens, no sprouts.

[Susan in FL]

Thanks for the responses about utensils, authenticity, etc. Still, I have a hard time imagining myself using chop sticks for the noodles... is it not impolite to have dripping noodles hanging out the mouth while sucking them in? (I've been trying to think of a better way to word that question, but didn't think of anything.)

[kangarool]

Susan in FL, on Feb 9 2004, 08:19 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses about utensils, authenticity, etc. Still, I have a hard time imagining myself using chop sticks for the noodles... is it not impolite to have dripping noodles hanging out the mouth while sucking them in? (I've been trying to think of a better way to word that question, but didn't think of anything.)

Susan, as I'm sure many others will point out, not only is slurping noodles from the bowl with chopsticks NOT impolite, it's a show of great appreciation of the dish... the louder and noiser the better!

As your signature says, "Life is short" ... so jump in and slurp away, it's the only way to really enjoy the dish the way it's meant.

[tissue]

Susan in FL, on Feb 9 2004, 08:19 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses about utensils, authenticity, etc. Still, I have a hard time imagining myself using chop sticks for the noodles... is it not impolite to have dripping noodles hanging out the mouth while sucking them in? (I've been trying to think of a better way to word that question, but didn't think of anything.)

put a bit size amt of noodle in a spoon on your hand as you hold the chopstick to the right.

[mrbigjas]

Susan in FL, on Feb 9 2004, 10:19 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses about utensils, authenticity, etc. Still, I have a hard time imagining myself using chop sticks for the noodles... is it not impolite to have dripping noodles hanging out the mouth while sucking them in? (I've been trying to think of a better way to word that question, but didn't think of anything.)

In my experience, it is not impolite, no. In addition, a lot of people come nowhere near finishing them and leave big piles of noodles in the bowls.

[Susan in FL]

I love it!
You have me convinced. I can't wait to go back and eat more, without regard to the slurping.
(And yes, it was a very generous serving...)

[itch22]

I can't speak for Vietnamese culture, but in Japan you hold the bowl with your left hand and eat the noodles with chop sticks in your right hand. You are to slurp your noodles, in sync with the others at the table, and then sip the broth from the bowl as if it were a cup of tea. I apply this method (minus the slurping ) at home and in a local favourite Vietnamese restraunt and no one seems to care.

What I am more interested in though, is whether or not anyone has any great recipes for a pho broth? I have a poor, "Americanized" one that tastes terrible compared to what Vietnamese restraunts offer.

[HKDave]

Itch22, pho isn't hard to make if you've ever made beef stock. There are infinite variations but here's a basic prep. Make a good homemade beef stock with the addition of a clove studded onion, a chunk of daikon or mild turnip, some star anise, a cinnamon stick and a piece of ginger.

Strain into serving bowls, divide the chunk of turnip among the bowls, add to each bowl a small handful of soaked rice noodles (soak 15-30 min in warm water depending on the thickness of the noodle, thicker = longer), some shredded cooked chicked or thin sliced raw beef. Garnish with:

- a thin slice of raw onion
- a shake of black pepper

Have on a separate plate on the table for people to add as they wish:

- thai (purple) basil
- blanched bean sprouts
- a lime wedge per person
- some thin sliced red chili pepper

plus these sauces:

- nuoc mam (fish sauce, aka Thai nam pla) - I think this wasn't mentioned in the thread above but I feel it is essential, it's the 'salt' flavour. This is a very common seasoning in Vietnam.
- hoisin sauce
- a smooth red chili sauce, again the Thai stuff is easiest to find in USA
- and if you really want to be authentic, a bottle of Maggi liquid seasoning. I've never tried it and am not sure what it tastes like, but it's on the table at hardcore pho restaurants from Saigon to Vancouver.

If you need a more formal recipe just Google 'pho recipe'. The recipesource.com one works but I think my suggestions about garnishes and sauces are more authentic. I work in Vietnam for a few weeks a year and have a bowl every day when I'm there....

Cheers
Hong Kong Dave

[kai-chan]

Hi,

I've been making pho for myself for 5 years. It was the only I could get it short of going to NYC. Actually according to my finicky roommate, my broth is second to none except for this little hole in the wall VN restaurant in Manhatten Chinatown. I couldn't pry the secrets from them. Most of their business is takeout for all the surrounding Vientamese vendors. Though last time I was there, this group of Japanese tourists came in and as we left, a family of four from the midwest came in time to take our vacated table. It's so tiny that they might be able to squeeze in 10 people in the sitting area. She's not coming back not even for the divine broth. They were condescending towards her. I pointed out that she was Indian and they might be afraid of offending her dietary habits.

My pho stock tends to be light and aromatic. THough she is a ex-Hindu, she has an aversion to strong meat smells, especailly beef. I use to do can chicken stock and found the only one I like is a Chinese brand, Knor. Dump in a pho spice packet. Do a little shabu shabu action w/ the thinly slice beef to partially cook the beef and give the stock a infusion of beefiness. Than I started making my own chicken stock by the gallon and freezing it for future use.

But for the past 2 years before the Mad Cow Diesease thing put an end to it, I've been experimenting with doing the actual beef stock. I derived a recipe from 2 sources, Pleasures of a Vietnamese Table and Food of Vietnam (out of print). Basically I go to my friendly butcher and take whatever beef bones he has, usually shank bones. Beggars can't be choosers. And a few cut up bone pieces from the neck....still has a bit of beef on it. Maybe a piece of a tough beef from the leg region or where ever (cheapest piece of beef). Blanch the bones of all its' impurities and dump it all in my 5 gallon stock pot (bones and piece of meat should fill it almost to the top) with cold water and a bare handful of sea salt or kosher salt. Be careful of putting too much salt because depending on the salt, some have more sodium than others....depending on the impurities if any in salt. Put it on really low overnight. Shouldn't even simmer, just quietly steam. skim off fat and scum on surface. Keep the marrow for spreading on toast. Than dump in my aromatics all wrapped up in cheesecloth, 1 huge onion or 2 large onions (studded w/ 10-12 cloves) charred, 7-8 shallots charred, a 5-6 inch of ginger charred and whacked to release juices, toasted star anise and chinese cinnamon. Keep on real low for another 4-6 hours until whole house smells like pho. Strain out the stock....freeze what can't be used. You can refresh w/ pho instant spice packet when defrost for next pho fest. It's so concentrated sometimes that I add water to dilute it. Makes for easy storage in freezer though. Season w/ fish sauce (a bit for added aroma) and salt to taste.

I soak my dry pho noodles (if can't find fresh which is most of the time) until flexible. So it's easy blanching in boiling salted water. Put slices of beef (usually buy Korean sliced beef for BBQ, tend to be more tender w/ enough fat to keep it from drying out but not too much to offend picky roommate) that you swish through broth to partially cook. Maybe a few beef balls. Pour on simmering hot stock. Garnish w/ scallions, thinly sliced onions, and chopped up cilantro. Let diners garnish from their choice of thai basil, mint, saw tooth herb, bean spouts (mung bean spout are way too strong), thai chilis, and lime. The condiments should be rooster smooth chili sauce, hoisin sauce, and fish sauce (top grade, first pressing for the table). Of course this is the way we eat it in South Vietnam where my family is from. The northerners are purists and like theirs unardorned.

PS Don't let the broth boil, it's turn cloudy. It'll taste find but it will look very unappetizing.