[Chef Fowke]

I have dabbled over the past year in making beer at home. I started off with a very simple kit I bought at the local grocery store for $10 Canadian. It was an Australian lager from Cooper. With an initial investment of less then $40 I brewed my first batch...

It was awful, but it had an interesting aftertaste I wanted to duplicate in a good beer.

I went to the local brew store and asked for some advice. I left the store that day with a glass carboy, an airlock and was told to take the same kit but this time siphon the beer out of the primary fermentation vessel after 4 days and put it into the glass carboy for two – three weeks to let it clarify.

It worked. The beer was 100% better and my friends kept asking for more.

I have made 10 different kit beers this year and I now want to brew my own lager/ale at home without using a kit. I am looking to develop some different flavours and incorporate different sugars, maple syrup and honeys. I have looked on the Internet and the sites are all selling kits. Bookstores have beer books but they are all written by hippies and seem to all include hemp in one form or another.

For all those interested I would like to start an online brewing forum. We will start by developing a recipe using our own resources on eGullet; individually procure the products and work through the fermentation process.

First question: What type of beer is best brewed at home; ale or a lager?

[theakston]

Answer: Ale definitely Ale.
The difference between an ale and a lager is the yeast. Ale yeast ferments from the top and works best at higher temperatures (50 - 60) where it is allowed to produce the fruity esters you can taste in an ale. Lager yeast ferments from the bottom and must be fermented cool (around 40) so that it is crisper and cleaner. A lager therefore takes longer and it is difficult to keep at the desired temperature, unless you have a converted refrigerator specially for this purpose. Also, as it has the "cleaner" taste, any defects, such as diacetyl, will be more pronounced. And diacetyl is a problem with lager which is difficult to eliminate.

A good resource for recipes is the cats meow

You are probably best to stick with the "extract" recipes at first (using commercially produced malt extract) before moving on to the "all grain" that requires additional equipment for extracting the fermentable sugars from raw grain. A good start would be a pale ale, this gives you the chance to work with different hops and some additional grains. Definitely try to use "live" yeast and make a "starter" in advance to get the yeast going.

Good luck!

And here's a good book on brewing:
Non-hippie-hemp-free-homebrew-book

This post has been edited by theakston: 29 October 2003 - 08:08 AM

[cdh]

Chef--

Good luck in your homebrew endeavors! I'll second the wise counsel of Theakston that lagers are best left to those who have the dedicated fridge equipment to keep the beer b/t 34 and 40F for a few months. Given your profession, I'd bet you have a free corner in a walk-in that fits that bill, so you're far ahead of most homebrewers. That said, the market for advice on properly brewing lagers is likely to be much smaller than that for brewing ales. Your profession would also give you an advantage if you were to get into the all-grain brewing, if you desired to do so. Your kitchen will almost certainly have 15-20 gallon stockpots and heating elements that can bring the contents of said pots to a certain temperature and maintain it for a set period of time... That is the essence of all-grain brewing... getting the right amount of water (w/ grain in it) to the right temperature, for the right amount of time to extract maximal sugar from the grains and avoid the unpleasant tannins and other such things that might come along if it gets too warm too soon. There are pieces of software written that help in calculating the temperatures and times for various grains. I've been brewing 2 or 3 batches a year for 10 years and have never stepped away from extract and specialty grain adjunct based ale recipes. There is so much more variety in the world of ales that I've not gotten bored with them yet.

Over the past few years I've developed a few staple brews that I repeat with minor modifications... In the summers I like to brew either a Witbier or a Belgian Black (which is a Wit with a bit of dark malt thrown into the mix with the coriander seed and orange peel). I've played with the variety of hops, with adding a few drops of citrus oils, and with the strength... I'm not done tweaking yet, but the product is always tasty. In the winters I like to have an abbey dubbel around, and my local brew shop puts together a great kit that includes such exotics as paradise seeds and sweet gale... to which I also add embelishments... like a pound of raisins, or a few ancho chiles, or other dried fruit. Yum.

Good luck with the exotic sugar experiments. I've heard of maple vodka, but never of maple beers... wonder if it is for lack of experimentation, or for lack of palatable results of experiments. I'd say that given the variations of plain barley malts available on the market- location of origin, plant strain of origin, degree of roast, caramelization, etc, that there are many many experiments in combining canonical ingredients into something completely new and different. And that is before you get to the hops and other flavorings. Not to mention the water chemistry, which is reported to have a profound effect on the results (some beers better brewed with hard water, some with soft water, etc).

You've got a huge number of variables to play with! Have fun with your experiments!

This post has been edited by cdh: 29 October 2003 - 11:42 AM

[Stone]

Theakston's given you the link to the Bible. Buy it, read it, love it. It tells all you need to know.
He is also correct that Ales are the beers to brew at home. You need refridgeration for lagers. And who wants to go through the trouble of sanitizing, filling and capping all those bottles just for a lager.

By "kit", do you mean a pre-hopped "soup" that you boil, ferment and bottle? If so, extract brewing is the next step. You put cracked roasted barley in a cheesecloth bag, set it in a few gallons of cold water and slowly bring it to a boil. Right before the boil, you take out the grains, leaving behind color and flavor. You add your extract, mix and bring back to boil. Add hops at various times and maybe other water supplements. An hour later, you've got wort. Chill quickly, and ferment. It's pretty easy.

I'm not sure where you are, but if you're near a large city, I assume there's a beer/wine brewing supply store that has pre-set kits. Here's a short list of what I think you need:

7 gallon glass carboy (primary fermenter)
5 gallon glass carboy (secondary fermenter) (Unless money's an issue, don't get plastic for your fermenters)
5 gallon pot. Stainless steel is the best, but aluminum will do.
Racking tube. (Long tube with a strainer on one end and a curve on the top)
Thermometer
Wort chiller
plastic tubing

I assume you've got the airlock and bottle capper.

When I started brewing, I had a hydrometer (??) to measure gravity, but I don't worry about that any more. I also used iodine drops, etc. Blah.

After a few extract brews, try mashing. It's a little more involved, but surprisingly easy.

THE EASIEST WAY TO IMPROVE YOUR HOMEBREW IS TO USE LIQUID YEAST.

[theakston]

Maple syrup:
One beer I have heard of that used maple syrup is the Immort Ale from Dogfish Head
They have some wildly experimental ales; most of them suprisingly good!
Also Sam adams used maple syrup in their triple bock.

[Chef Fowke]

So after reading the information here I see that I have not made a lager yet. The kit (a can filled with worts that you add dry yeast to) I used for Australian Lager was fermented at 75f so it really must be Ale....

Presently I am working with a 22l plastic fermentation bucket and a 20l glass carboy (both fitted with an airlock). Should I get rid of the plastic bucket and replace it with glass? Will it make a huge difference? I have all the tubing and being a Chef I have lots of large stock pots.

My next step will be to do some extract brewing. I remember seeing 'bulk bins' full of different grains at the local brew shop. I need to investigate more. As well I will look into liquid yeasts.

[theakston]

Chef Fowke, on Oct 29 2003, 12:19 PM, said:

So after reading the information here I see that I have not made a lager yet. The kit (a can filled with worts that you add dry yeast to) I used for Australian Lager was fermented at 75f so it really must be Ale....

It probably was an ale. Depends on the yeast, but I would imagine that it was an ale yeast with the lager characteristics coming from pale malts and the type of hop. Technically that would be a Kolsch.

Or it could have been a lager that was fermented at a higher temperature (that would be more like a steam beer). But that is unlikely.

On the plastic beer bucket. I still use one for primary fermentation. It's a good idea to get the wort nice and aireated at the start of fermentation (especially an ale). Then transfer it to a glass carboy once the vigorous primary fermentation has died down. Others prefer a closed fermentation system as there is less chance of exposure to wild yeasts or infections. I don't think it's necessary and some yeasts (especially british style ale yeasts) will not work well with a closed system as they really need the air. Most English systems are and have always been open fermentation vessels. The important thing is to get the wort down to temperature quickly and to pitch a good quantity of already active yeast -- which is why a starter is the way to go. For a starter you need to get some fermentable sugars in a large sterilized bottle (at least a half litre) with an air lock and pitch the live yeast into that to let it start to grow. Then by the time you pitch it into the primary fermenter it will be bubbling away merrily before any wild yeasts or bacteria get the chance to get involved.

This post has been edited by theakston: 29 October 2003 - 12:48 PM

[Jim]

Chef

I think the idea of an home brewing forum is a great idea! I particularly like the notion one recipe brewed across the eGullet reach. For in that way some of the contributions made by such variables as local water chemistry, grain and hop variety, equipment systems and the like could be, so to speak, witnessed. It’s also possible to experience the difference between an extract vs. full-mash-analogue recipe. Home brew is far easier to share across the reach than most foodstuffs; in fact, for many home brew competitions, entries are mailed in, Additionally, there are, for competition purposes, style guidelines for an amazing variety of beer styles. These guides allow reasonably objective comparison and discussion. All this is a long way to say…let’s go for it.!

As to brewing books, I have a slight dissent from the recommended Papazian books. Charlie is a cult figure in home brewing circles; he probably did more than anyone alive to spark the home brewing and micro brewing upswing that occurred in the late 80s and early 90s. He is the most inviting writer in the field. His forte is not, however, precise technical explanation of brewing matters [I have no doubt he has technical expertise]. I've found the Dave Miller and Greg Noonan books more useful. That said, like cook books, home brewing books are one of those things one can't have too many of.

I, too, began with extract recipes but quickly traded up to all grain, or full mash, brewing...there's simply no other way to get great results, at least to my taste and in my experience making and tasting, including many extract brewpubs with great equipment. So, my advice is to get into full mash brewing ASAP. It's not significantly more difficult than extract brewing, although as you begin to seek more and more control over the variables, you really have to become a wee bit of a brewing geek.

Ales, as has been well said already, lend themselves much more easily to home brewing owing to the need for lower temperatures during an extended storing [lagering] period. In practice, ambient temperature in a winter basement allows you to make very acceptable lagers; after all, lagers didn't wait upon refrigeration for their invention!

Because I advocate and practice full mash brewing, I also advocate special purpose equipment for brewing. Here's a site - one of many - to view various full mash set ups :

http://www.brewtree....page/268924.htm

I'm planning to get one of these after I complete my move to Seattle from San Francisco in December. I now have a far less fancy version of this stuff that I've given my son, so I HAVE t get a new brewing set up.

I have not found that huge differences in final produce from using properly cleaned, sanitized food-grade plastic vs glass or stainless steel. The difference is more in the difficulty in cleaning plastic after prolonged use...the scratches and scruffs become great places for nefarious beasties that you can't always expunge. Liquid yeast is the way to go. As a chef you should be easily able to trade some tucker for eyast at a local brewpub. Usually the brewers are very anxious to help home brewers, so I'd advise a trip to some local brew pubs and chatting up the brewer!

Jim Randell

[cdh]

Chef Fowke, on Oct 29 2003, 12:19 PM, said:

So after reading the information here I see that I have not made a lager yet. The kit (a can filled with worts that you add dry yeast to) I used for Australian Lager was fermented at 75f so it really must be Ale....

Chef-

Your thinking is off here-- temperature of fermentation does not differentiate between ale and lager. Type of yeast does. The temperature issue is derivative from the yeast choice.

Yeasts are little organic chemical reactors, which primarily eat simple sugars, and discharge the reaction products, i.e. ethanol and CO2. But that is just the tip of the iceberg. The yeasts, depending on the strain, will produce other organic compounds besides just the booze and the gas. There are, for example, diacetyls that come out of some yeasts (sometimes) and give a buttery flavor to the beer...

Since this is all very complex organic chemistry, the temperature at which the yeast reactions take place has a bearing on which reactions will happen, how efficiently, and what the resultant compounds will be. Lager yeasts have a propensity to produce flavors that are considered erroneous in beer when they are allowed to do their reacting at temperatures much above 50F. On the other hand, some ale yeasts won't do much reacting at all unless the temperature is closer to 55 or 60.

To demonstrate this, an experiment to be done is to make a batch of wort, get three separate fermentation vessels, divide it equally between them, and pitch the exact same yeast. Assuming you're doing an ale, take one of the fermentors and place it someplace where the temperature hovers around 55F, another somewhere the temperature is around 65F and the last in a 75F space. They will take different amounts of time to ferment out, and there will be notable differences in the flavors produced.

A very very informative yeasty FAQ that does a much better job of explaining all this stuff than I have.

This post has been edited by cdh: 30 October 2003 - 10:01 AM

[iain]

I just stumbled across this thread and wanted to pile on. I think an eGullet brewing forum is a great idea. When do we get started?

[halland]

I'll second the desire for a homebrewing thread/topic. There aren't many other forums that can compete with the community of Egullet, especially in the homebrew arena.

Hal

[iain]

Quote

For all those interested I would like to start an online brewing forum. We will start by developing a recipe using our own resources on eGullet; individually procure the products and work through the fermentation process.

Alright...I'm going to make a batch right after thanksgiving weekend, I think. Anyone interested in making this a group project?

[Mayhaw Man]

You will find that 1007 from Wyeast works well as an ale yeast that performs and has a flavor profile similar to lager yeast is very easy to deal with in a home brewing situation.

The problem with brewing lagers at home (at least ones that you will want ot consume) is that most lager yeast have very specific profiles that need to be followed during the fermentation and secondary fermentation periods. Most homebrewers do not have the refrigeration control needed to make truly exceptional lagers and will find that alt yeast is durable and produces nice dry beers in a vein similar to good lagers.

Wyeast is a good source. They began as a supplier to homebrewers and moved into commercial production as the micro industry grew. David Logsdon is a microbiologist and one of th leading yeast nerds in North America and a really nice guy to boot.

[Chef Fowke]

YES Yes yes!!!


lets grab a few rusted pots and pans and brew a simple beer online and compare the outcome. Lets pitch the yeast next Sunday!

[iain]

Chef Fowke, on Nov 29 2003, 05:11 AM, said:

YES Yes yes!!!


lets grab a few rusted pots and pans and brew a simple beer online and compare the outcome. Lets pitch the yeast next Sunday!

Excellent. I suppose the first step is to choose a recipe and acquire the ingredients. I think we should probably start with a fairly simple extract-based ale. I'll look for a good recipe.

Is anyone else in? Perhaps we should start a new thread for this project so other members can easily find us?

[jhlurie]

halland, on Nov 18 2003, 09:58 PM, said:

I'll second the desire for a homebrewing thread/topic. There aren't many other forums that can compete with the community of Egullet, especially in the homebrew arena.

Hal

The usual pattern on eGullet is that new Forums follow traffic. I certainly can't make any promises, because there are other factors involved, but the FIRST step is for you folks to start making all different kinds of Home brewing posts here in the existing Beer forum. This forum "belongs" to brewers (of either the home OR professional level) fully as much as those who buy their beer from someone else. And it would be a great thing to have those posts here--to give those Wine Forum "punks" a run for their money in terms of how active you guys can be. Go for it!

And you've got a lovely new host here, Rich, to help you along.

[Chef Fowke]

I am back from a month of vacation and ready to tackle this most important topic. Being Canadian I see it as being my civic duty to help in the production of more beer for the masses.

Where should we start?

Is there a kit that is international that we can all buy and produce? The Techies can explain what is happening through each step of the preparation and then we can all try the final product and report on it....

Then we can become more advanced and start brewing beer from scratch together! Who knows maybe we will make it into the eGullet recipe page!!!

Anyone interested? Start time: December 8th, 2003.

Suggestion:

[cdh]

Well, if we're going to do a project like this, I think that the kits (at least the pre-hopped ones) won't give us enough of a learning experience. The pre-hopped kits only really allow for creativity in the choice of yeast and the extra fermentables that you throw into the mix. The rest of the task is boiling water and pouring malt syrup into it.

I'd much rather pick a simple recipe that uses well-distributed ingredients. I'd like to experiment with a simple and malty amber ale like this Bass knock-off.

Everybody doing the project should report the brand and provenance of each ingredient they used. It will be fun to see the differences.

This post has been edited by cdh: 30 November 2003 - 04:01 PM

[cdh]

Chef Fowke, on Nov 29 2003, 03:11 AM, said:

lets grab a few rusted pots and pans and brew a simple beer online and compare the outcome. Lets pitch the yeast next Sunday!

One thing to pay very careful attention to is that your boiling vessels are neither rusty nor capable of rust. I've got a batch of Wit in the basement that tastes horribly metallic since the enameled pot I'd boiled it in had apparently gotten a chip in it and exposed the beer to the metal.

Stainless is the way to go.

[iain]

cdh, on Nov 30 2003, 05:56 PM, said:

Well, if we're going to do a project like this, I think that the kits (at least the pre-hopped ones) won't give us enough of a learning experience. The pre-hopped kits only really allow for creativity in the choice of yeast and the extra fermentables that you throw into the mix. The rest of the task is boiling water and pouring malt syrup into it.

I'd much rather pick a simple recipe that uses well-distributed ingredients. I'd like to experiment with a simple and malty amber ale like this Bass knock-off.

Everybody doing the project should report the brand and provenance of each ingredient they used. It will be fun to see the differences.

I wholeheartedly agree that a simple extract recipe using readily available ingredients, rather than a pre-hopped kit, is the way to do this. Another option are these pre-assembled kits from Northern Brewer. Brewers with an existing home-brew supplier should be able to get the ingredients there, and new brewers in out-of-the-way locales can buy the whole thing with no fuss. I've used these ingredient kits before; the instructions are extremely clear and easy to follow.

How many people are in on this project? We need to decide on a recipe very soon, so those ordering ingredients get them on time.

[Chef Fowke]

I will be just an observer and will do what the masses decide. Once I understand the process I will start requesting different flavour profiles.

Count me in! Lets make beer.

[cdh]

Have just looked over the Northern Brewer site... one issue I see for those of us with local homebrew shops is that their inventories specify the specialty grains by brand rather than by Lovibond rating... I know I can walk into my shop and get a pound of 10L crystal malt... I don't know whether they stock Simpson's or Dingemans or otherwise... So we run the risk of significant variation due to different levels of caramelization in whatever specialty grains we find ourselves using.

Another variable I don't know how to control for is the differing chemistry of our water that we'll use to brew with. I know it makes a difference, but I don't know how to test for trace minerals in my water. Anybody know a cheap source of water analysis devices? We should all know and declare our water type in this project.

One final issue comes to mind- if a bunch of us do brew the same recipe, then we should be distributing a bottle or two of our own product to the others so that the differences can be experienced... Or (considering the likely high cost of mailing a bottle of beer to a dozen different people) at least one person should be the designated taster and receive a bottle from everybody who brewed and then write up a critique of the range of beers received.

[Chef Fowke]

Why not get 20 people involved and brew 20L of beer each. We can each send 19l of beer to the other brewers. It would be brilliant! We then could pick a saturday night to taste all the beer and could respond live online with our critic!

[cdh]

Chef Fowke, on Nov 30 2003, 10:55 PM, said:

Why not get 20 people involved and brew 20L of beer each. We can each send 19l of beer to the other brewers. It would be brilliant! We then could pick a saturday night to taste all the beer and could respond live online with our critic!

Great thought, but would be cost prohibitive for me. Since a liter is a kilo (or slightly more), sending each liter (quite illegally, I believe) within the US would cost me more than $4... adding up to at least $80 in postage... not to mention ingredients. Were I to decide to blow that kind of dough on beer, my first inclination would be to go and pick up a case of Rochefort 10 or such for not terribly much more.

Sending along a bottle or two to one person/place would be within the budget... legality be damned.

[iain]

cdh, on Dec 1 2003, 01:18 AM, said:

Sending along a bottle or two to one person/place would be within the budget... legality be damned.

One or two bottles sent out would fit better within my time constraints, as well.

I also think we might need a "brewmaster" to lead this project. Someone who has done this before and understands the ins and outs. I've brewed a handful of times in the past, but not for a few years - and I've never really looked into water chemistry issues, caramelization properties of different grains, etc. Anyone else think this is necessary? Anyone want to volunteer?

[cdh]

iain, on Dec 1 2003, 07:07 AM, said:

I also think we might need a "brewmaster" to lead this project. Someone who has done this before and understands the ins and outs. I've brewed a handful of times in the past, but not for a few years - and I've never really looked into water chemistry issues, caramelization properties of different grains, etc. Anyone else think this is necessary? Anyone want to volunteer?

I'm in total agreement that we need somebody who knows what's going on to lead this brigade. I know that there is a whole lot that I don't know about what's going on in brewing...

The caramelization thing re grain is simple- when you roast something with sugar in it, some of the sugar caramelizes. Caramelized sugar is what darkens beer. Lovibond ratings express how much darkening a particular malt will contribute to a batch of beer. See this article for a good discussion of the issue.

As to water chemistry, I know nothing whatsoever about the mechanics... only that it is generally reported to make a difference in the outcome. I've never tried to figure out what the water in my well is specifically suited to brewing, and have been reasonably pleased with everything I've brewed with it, so I've not ever tried to doctor the water chemistry by throwing gypsum or epsom salts or other such things into my brew kettle.

It would be good to see if we can get a beer pro onto our project to act as moderator and one-man tasting panel.

[M3brewboy]

Count me in! I'm an all-grain brewer but can easily adjust a kit, malt extract, or partial grain recipe intoa an all-grain.

I usually hang out at the Homebrewers digest. It is a very large daily e-mail of dozens of long posts that take place during the day. These guys are way serious. Extremely technical. These are just Homebrewers, but they have taken it a few levels up and "kicked it up a notch". I only go there just to learn. Most of time it is too technical and I learn nothing, but it can be very educational.

My wife participates in the hobby of brewing also. She loves it. She may even be more into it than I am. How lucky am I?

Gary

[jhlurie]

Normally I don't let it be known beforehand which topics we will be placing on the "Hot Topics" links located on eGullet.com's front page, but I'm making an exception this time. This topic will be on that list's next update, because we always enjoy promoting "community projects". They are good for eGullet, and good for the sense of community here.

If you guys are willing to wait on implementation until that happens (we change the Hot Topics every Friday--so the next opportunity is Dec. 5) then you might get some increased activity/participation here.

Of course that shouldn't get in the way of planning. And it's YOUR project, so I'm not going to dictate anything--just advising you of a possible increase of attention (it doesn't always pan out that way... sometimes the Hot Topics lead to a lot of new attention, but occasionally it doesn't seem to make the slightest difference...)

[iain]

jhlurie, on Dec 2 2003, 06:02 PM, said:

Normally I don't let it be known beforehand which topics we will be placing on the "Hot Topics" links located on eGullet.com's front page, but I'm making an exception this time. This topic will be on that list's next update, because we always enjoy promoting "community projects". They are good for eGullet, and good for the sense of community here.

If you guys are willing to wait on implementation until that happens (we change the Hot Topics every Friday--so the next opportunity is Dec. 5) then you might get some increased activity/participation here.

Of course that shouldn't get in the way of planning. And it's YOUR project, so I'm not going to dictate anything--just advising you of a possible increase of attention (it doesn't always pan out that way... sometimes the Hot Topics lead to a lot of new attention, but occasionally it doesn't seem to make the slightest difference...)

Actually...waiting would be better for me. I have to order stuff online and we haven't even picked a recipe yet. Right now, it looks like we have four of us in on this project - Chef Fowke, cdh, M3brewboy, and me. I don't think we need a ton of people to do this well, but the more the merrier. Of course, if we do end up with just a handful, sending bottles to all involved is much more feasible.

[cdh]

A brief delay is not a bad thing in my book either. I should just have enough bottles freed up for another batch by now, though my bottling bucket is doing douible duty as a secondary fermentor for some cider I've had going for a few weeks. By the time we get going, that should give the cider enough time to do its thing (or I'll have "sampled" it out of existence...)

Cider, btw, is the easiest brew project I've ever done. Acquire several gallon jugs of really good fresh cider, pour into primary fermentor, add pound of honey, stir tiil frothy, add wine yeast, walk away.